Cloverleaf Campaign is Live

https://librefree.me/cloverleafs-kickstarter-campaign-is-officially-live

Just got the email about the campaign and figure I’d write a blog post about it.

-Braillynn

I read your blog from time to time. Always a good read. I must admit I prefer RISC OS articles, but I’m biased that way.

Here’s hoping the Cloverleaf Project meets their target. If they manage to achieve even 50% of what they say, it will be a huge bonus for all RISC OS users everywhere. Certainly worth some backing I think. After all it’s not everyday we have people saying they will fundamentally improve RISC OS in so many areas from GPU, Video, Filesystems, Sound, Multi-core and other currently missing Apps from the RISC OS market.

I see it the same way. If „only“ WiFi and the new browser get realised and some new user will be won, then the campaign would be a big success and push for RISC OS already. The start looks promising!

I’m finding it all rather cynical :( €30 for the freely downloadable RPCEmu, ludicrous markups on pinebooks and raspberry pis, it’s all building on other people’s work without adding anything substantive. Surely if you’re serious about contributing to the effort you contribute code/action to the ROOL effort which is the base fork, you don’t go solo? Also it seems quite clear that the person organising it doesn’t actually understand anything about the platform other than “they want to use it”. I’m utterly convinced there are better places to put your money to support the platform.

Having read through all that, I can’t help but wonder if one should be concentrating on, say, porting an office suite or whatever when there is so much still to do with the core OS.

Six core board? Nice.
Under RISC OS? Not to much…

Six core board? Nice.
Under RISC OS? Not to much…

March 2021

What would an office suite on RISCOS have to offer, that LibreOffice on Mac or PC doesn’t offer for free? How many people really expect to use RISCOS as their only platform?

From my point of view, the point of having RISCOS is for those things it does well, that another platform doesn’t. Trying to compete on things other platforms do well seems pretty pointless to me.

I’m finding it all rather cynical :( €30 for the freely downloadable RPCEmu,

Well not exactly new given that VirtualAcorn made a business on the back of Red Squirrel if my memory serves me right and happy to be corrected.

ludicrous markups on pinebooks and raspberry pis, it’s all building on other people’s work without adding anything substantive.

And isn’t the market of RISC OS wares based on that already and how do you think things are done.

As to mention of Raspberry Pi markups then you do know it is most likely a Rock Pi based on the RK3399?

You did look at their roadmap of what they expect to add and when and yes leaps of faith are needed and nothing is set in stone but at least someone is doing something different and it really isn’t aimed at just us the long term community.

Why do I get the foreboding this is going to be one of those typical RISC OS moments where we invent another pointless them and us war blue/green directories / VA v native/ RISCOS6 v 5,ROL v ROOL v ROD v anyone else that doesn’t conform.

I spent a great evening and listened to someone who showed great courage on Monday and was left feeling truely uplifted but I guess we like our RISC OS ‘wars’ too much and seem to have learnt nothing in between.

If they are successful then great we will have a newer and bigger community and isn’t that something also to rejoice about.

Well not exactly new given that VirtualAcorn made a business on the back of Red Squirrel if my memory serves me right and happy to be corrected.

Whether or not that was cynical is probably moot – but there was active development. Actually, I have absolutely no problem with them bundling RPCEmu with anything so long as they make it clear what it is and that it’s available for free with a quickstart bundle.

It’s the smoke and mirrors to try and make people pay for something that is generally available that I find cynical – if you’re just asking for money for development, ask for money for development, don’t pretend it’s paying for a product that isn’t actually your product and you haven’t actually done anything to.

With regard to models – I think the cheapest is a BCM2711 – that’d be a Raspberry Pi, in a box, for £270. If people want to pay that, then that’s fine but for goodness sake, call it what it is and don’t pretend it’s something else.

Anyway, just my opinion :) All others are free to theirs!

Why do I get the foreboding this is going to be one of those typical RISC OS moments where we invent another pointless them and us war blue/green directories / VA v native/ RISCOS6 v 5,ROL v ROOL v ROD v anyone else that doesn’t conform.

I do not see that being the case, but I am a little concerned about the timetable for all the projected items. Where are all the developers/programmers coming from? Looking at the list, a number of the items mentioned in the timeline are already underway anyway, Wi-Fi driver, Bluetooth, Sound system update for example – so should they be used in the kickstarter timeline?

Yes its good someone is trying to help develop the platform, I just worry about the timeline proposed for all the work, etc..

I am a little concerned about the timetable for all the projected items.

When I mentioned March 2021 for multi-core, it was because of a mixture of surprise and scepticism.
The timeline seems agressive and difficult to achieve – unless they actually have someone dedicated to that one task who has already got things partly working.

Your concern matches mine it would seem.

I don’t want to step into the “rightness/wrongness” debate, because I can understand both sides. However, when dealing with Kickstarter, it is very easy to think of it as a pre-order system. This is a classic misconception of what Kickstarter is supposed to be (I keep falling into the trap myself).

The idea behind Kickstarter is that you believe in the project and want to make it happen. You donate money to that goal, with rewards offered by way of “thankyou” for the pledged amount. The reward will rarely be “worth” the amount directly, simply because the money is meant to “kickstart” the idea/project. If the reward cost the whole amount, there’d be no money to develop the idea (not to mention covering kickstarter fees – 5% of total, and VAT – 20%). Things on Kickstarter often feel expensive because of this.

Also, some Kickstarters never deliver. I have backed board and computer games over the years. About 80% have delivered in some form (mostly OK). I can think of one board game that I doubt I’ll ever see (goodbye 100$) and two or three video games (much cheaper). That’s the risk of a Kickstarter.

For low cost items, expect the physical costs to be minimal – eg. digital downloads of stuff. Also, don’t expect Kickstarter to offer amazing value (although most projects will aim to suggest as much). It is fairly common for board games that cost 80$ – 100$ at Kickstarter to be available for 60 pounds at retail a year or two later. That’s because the purpose of the Kickstarter is to make the project happen. Once it has happened, then it is cheaper to mass-produce (usually).

How much of this applies to this Kickstarter, I don’t know. I believe Stefan focussed on making many of the cheaper rewards easily do-able, so that they could be delivered in quite short timescales, because he felt that backers would want something quickly (Kickstarters normally take 1 – 2 years to deliver).

Quick final note – Kickstarters like this are also aimed outside the core audience, with the goal of attracting investment from outside of the traditional community. Most of the rewards could be bought from ROOL, RISC OS Developments, R-Comp Interactive or RISC OS Bits by the existing userbase. However, if this was really lucrative enough fund everything, we’d already be there from existing sales (maybe). If the Kickstarter only reaches existing folks, it really isn’t all that helpful. The goal is to reach new people, and Kickstarter can be an attractive platform for that.

I am a little concerned about the timetable for all the projected items.

Yes it is challenging but then again depends on if this is for fully funded coders to do the work or expecting people to do it in sapre time.

I hope it is the case that we don’t go down that route and if this doesn’t succeed then it may just generate enough publicity to get people interested anyway.

With regard to models – I think the cheapest is a BCM2711 – that’d be a Raspberry Pi, in a box, for £270. If people want to pay that, then that’s fine but for goodness sake, call it what it is and don’t pretend it’s something else.

I may be wrong but I think the cheapest is the Cloverleaf Kitten
, 299 Euro, which has a RK3399 so is not Pi based.

They are also clear that it includes 100 Euro RISC OS development donation as someone needs to do the port.

The RISC OS scene has always had a premium to it and since the days Acorn closed shop many systems have been based on other platforms:

Iyonix – AKA Tungsten
ARMini – AKA Beagleboard -Xm
PandaRO/ARMiniX – AKA Pandaboard
ARMX6 – Wandborard
RiscStation – Simtec ARM7500 board
RapidO/Titan/TiMachine – Elesar Titanium
Plus many more

Nearly all have ports that have come back to ROOL and hopefully this will be the case here, certainly it was mentioned on the ROUGOL talk to that effect if I remember rightly, and people can do DIY or purchase Turnkey as is their choice and how they feel.

However, when dealing with Kickstarter, it is very easy to think of it as a pre-order system. This is a classic misconception of what Kickstarter is supposed to be

Thanks for the explantion and I also note that this will not even happen until the threshold is reached on a All or Nothing basis.

What ever happens it has got RISC OS out to a wider audience anyway and that can only be positive.

I’m feeling positive this week and that all started from a real uplifting human story and talk at the ROUGOL meeting this week.

Time will tell if my new found rose tinted glasses are lasting or not :-)

That was some interesting reading.

I am also skeptical about multi-core in March 2021, and I am curious about what “updated GUI” is about. At least they have left out USB 3 out of the timeline.

Regarding Wifi and Bluetooth in April, since the new Network stack was recently reported to be running with these features disabled that seems feasible.

Another interesting stuff is that the Puma enlarges our base of supported GPUs since it uses an ARM Mali GPU.

It’s a good sign when members of a community speak up when they find something that makes them feel uncomfortable. I felt the same way once it had been highlighted. It is also good when we see the bigger picture – the intentions of a Kickstarter. I believe that good people are trying to do what’s right for RISC OS.

Team Cloverleaf has so far delivered Chatcube for free, and a Kickstarter.

Reaching out to a broader audience can only be a good thing, …

I may be wrong but I think the cheapest is the Cloverleaf Kitten
, 299 Euro, which has a RK3399 so is not Pi based.

Yes, if you look back to the kickstarter page it’s listed as Broadcom BCM2711 – it’s different to the original cloverleaf website.

Andrew – I really agree with this, but I think the kickstarter needs to present itself as such instead of going out of its way to obfuscate. I’m naturally rather cynical, I get on rather better with people being straight rather than sort of pretending something is something it’s not :)

Currently there are so many layers and things and options it looks like a shop. And a confusing and expensive shop at that. As I said “Look, get this from us and fund the development of this, it’s based on an X or a Y or a Z, we’ll send you lovely item Q and you’ll have contributed to the creation of P down the line.” is rather more honest.

I agree.

The idea behind Kickstarter is that you believe in the project and want to make it happen.

Belief is one thing. Achievable, Realistic and Timely goals are more pertinent.

Have you ever come across the SMART acronym?
Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, and Timely.

I, and others, fear that the timescales are unrealistic and therefore the goal may not be achievable.
The only surprise I can get will be pleasant.

I’d have to agree on the timeline observations. If it were me personally setting the timeline, I’d have baked in a LOT of slippage time, as I know from boardgame kickstarters (not to mention 30 years of software/hardware development) nothing ever goes to plan with these things. Stuff takes a lot longer than anyone expects, and that leads to people feeling disappointed and mislead. I would definitely say to backers that they should go in expecting the timeline to slide significantly, although I know Stefan is very keen to try and deliver as much as possible, as soon as possible.

As most of you know, I’m much more of a “wait, wait, wait and…. tada!” kind of person, preferring to show a product fully formed (or near enough) so as not to raise expectations unnecessarily. That’s not really the Kickstarter way though. Kickstarter is all about having an idea and then trying to get funding to make that idea happen. Given how RISC OS users have been burned in the past by projects not delivering on all their promises, I’ve personally steered hard in the opposite direction with RCI computers and software releases. However, Kickstarter has earned big interest and money for other retro projects such as Spectrum Next and others, so why shouldn’t someone try a RISC OS one? Goodness knows our beloved platform could do with some more exposure and external interest :)

Given how RISC OS users have been burned in the past by projects not delivering on all their promises

I should have been an Omega owner.

Yes, if you look back to the kickstarter page it’s listed as Broadcom BCM2711 – it’s different to the original cloverleaf website.

Thanks for clarifying that and in my defence as usual the perils of RISC OS browsing strike in that Netsurf only gives a limited exprience on the Kickstarter page and and hence on mention of Kitten I fell back on my knowledge from the Cloverleaf page that does give a fuller though obviously now different spec for the same named product.

My point still is the same though there are many established RISC OS companies charging a premium for these packaged systems, including RaspberryPi based ones, and it comes down to choice by the consumer and if they think it is a fair price.

I also agree in this case belief on if they will deliver it or the project objectives.

Looking again at the kickstarter webpage, the Cloverleaf Kitten is limited to 25 computers. The All in onec omputer will be limited 25 as well.
Makes me wonder how the ‘backers’ will be supported afterwards with this limited number of machines.

Looking at the site now with a better browser I see the target is 50,000 euros. How will this pay for all the development and programmers?

If it can all be done superb, but the timeline proposed does worry me. We will just have to wait and see.

There are some things about the Kickstarter I find a little bit strange. I would have expected something like: For 5000 we get GUI improvements (what kind of?), if it reaches 15000 we get multi-CPU support, 25000 for WiFi, 30000 for Bluetooth etc. Still I think positive about the campain and hope it will get funded.

But I really hope that they are in contact with other RISC OS developers. AFAIK a new network stack is on the way which makes WiFi support more likely and there are two people working on Bluetooth as well. I hope that Cloverleaf will combine those efforts and not do their own thing from scratch. I also hope that it will be made open source and merged into RISC OS 5.

Given how RISC OS users have been burned in the past by projects not delivering on all their promises

I should have been an Omega owner.

And I would have been a Phoebe 2100 owner :-)