RISC OS Desktop Modernisation project

…does anyone knows how to reach whoever own the Acorn “Acorn” logo so to make sure I can re-use it for the Task Manager icon?

To summarize past discussion on the Acorn logo:

The Acorn brand now belongs to someone called Julien Clairet, who was involved in the (now defunct) company from 2006 which tried to sell Acorn badged Wintel laptops. He’s now trying to license the Acorn brand via a company called Brand Access Limited. https://brand-access.com/blog/2019/05/20/acorn/ His claim to the Acorn trademark can be seen on the IPO website https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00913633334 where he claims (to quote) The word “Acorn” in black followed by a representation of an acorn in green, although it’s possible he has more to back his claims. (Much as we despised that company, it’s use of the brand seemed to be legally impeccable.)

As an aside, in 2019, someone called Edward Rigg trademarked an Acorn logo that’s identical to the digitization of Acorn’s original trademark submission from 1981 (right down to obvious defects). https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00003410335 However, his claim was made after Clairet’s, and he shows no evidence of actually owning the copyright to said image. (Unless he purchased it from one of Acorn’s successor companies or intellectual property holders, he almost certainly doesn’t.) This trademark claim was made via a company called Virtualytics Limited, which started out being called “Acorn Computers (1978) Limited”, and is now called “Edward Rigg Limited”. Virtualytics is mentioned as the Acorn trademark owner in the disclaimer to the recent “Acorn: A world in pixels” book, but it seems unlikely that the authors know more than we do. Given the problems with Rigg’s claims, I think Clairet’s claim is the only one that matters.

Using an Acorn icon for the task manager is a legal grey area. A stylized acorn is a generic idea which (as a Google Images search will show) has been used dozens of times. However, there is still the matter of “passing off”, whereby a company can claim you’re trying to trick customers by imitating them. Although in the case of a task manager logo, it’s difficult to see what you’d be passing off as.

Thanks Paolo. I understand that theming is only one part of this project, and that there are other proposals too – notifications, extra controls, etc. Theming is my main area of interest, since it’s something I’ve tinkered with before (I came up with the Little Yellow Moon system you mentioned above).

You’re right that the current RISC OS 5 theme system is very basic. But it’s also extendable. A Theme is simply a directory with Sprite files inside for the system icons, and a Tools file for the window furniture. It can also contain a CoFlags file, which specifies additional options – currently a single WimpVisualFlags command. There’s no reason why more switches couldn’t be added to this command to cover more characteristics. And there’s also no reason why a more comprehensive configuration file couldn’t be added to the Theme directory to control further options, which could be fairly simple (specifying a preferred font) to more ambitious (sounds, palette changes, etc). As long as the API for this was consistent (and adopted by ROOL?), and the Configure plugin was updated to keep pace, then this would go a long way towards achieving the goals you’ve outlined.

This is really what I meant by ‘refining and extending’ the current system. Existing RISC OS 5 Themes will continue to work just as they do now, but newer ones can take advantage of extra options as they emerge. The key issue will be where the code resides that does the actual work. Would it be a new third-party module (which I think is what you’re suggesting?) or would it involve updating the Wimp sources? My feeling is that the latter would be better, if possible.

@ Chris

A Theme is simply a directory with Sprite files inside for the system icons, and a Tools file for the window furniture. It can also contain a CoFlags file, which specifies additional options – currently a single WimpVisualFlags command.

Same for the DME, and you can install a theme in a very similar way to your theme manager (I think the only two changes I am adding to that process is using a zip file for the theme and allowing to download themes from a repository on the internet)

The Theme directory in the case of DME, contains also:

• Palettes (can contain multiple Palette file for example for dark and light mode)
• Can contain the fonts that will then be installed as regular RISC OS fonts during an installation
• Contains a Theme configuration file (like your theming, however extended to Rich Goodwin protocol)
• Can contain theme sounds
• Can contain Theme Gadgets
• Can contain Theme backgrounds

This is just the theming.

For the plugins there is going to be a configuration protocol, that is because for example for the Windows-to-Front Global Control many will just want to be able to click on every part of a window to bring it to the front and others will want to add a “modifier” (a key like CTRL or SHIFT etc… to be pressed together when you click with the mouse and this is because some find it useful to work using the windows in background)

So when it comes down to Desktop behaviour unfortunately things can get complicated and that’s all on the configuration side.

But again if people want to use the existing theming (or extend it) and use only a portion of the DME or even not use the DME at all thats totally fine by me, hence I do not see the issue :)

I am not going to extend the existing theming because that means re-writing it hence not sure in what could it be the value of such an effort, but again it’s possible that is just me not understanding this.

There’s no reason why more switches couldn’t be added to this command to cover more characteristics.

Except that I think we’ll have to write the whole code to handle such additions correctly and then deal with the configuration of plugins to make it solid and then extend to the fonts and the scaling of windows in the future and DPI… I have no time for it, so if someone else wants to do the work and do it right then sure please I’d love to use it too.

I mean this is the source for the theming tool: https://gitlab.riscosopen.org/RiscOS/Sources/SystemRes/ThemeDefs/-/blob/master/bas/SetTheme

To extend it means re-write it and just use some of the procs in there (which DME already do) for compatibility with RO 5…

The Theming setup code is bigger than the theming code: https://gitlab.riscosopen.org/RiscOS/Sources/SystemRes/Configure2/PlugIns/ThemeSetup/-/tree/master/c

And has a logic that already follows a clear flow, so again if you’d want to extend it please do :)

Would it be a new third-party module (which I think is what you’re suggesting?) or would it involve updating the Wimp sources?

So a Theming Manager is always a configuration tool, not part of the WIMP itself (eventually part of the !Boot structure).

The WIMP is the API that allows more or less features to be configured. Extending the WIMP with 3rd party modules is absolutely the RISC OS way of doing things, so I am not sure why is this an issue for you, but again if you’d like to extend the WIMP please go ahead, I don’t think this project is a stop or an issue for that.

I’d be totally happy to add checks in the DME to detect the new and awesome WIMP and use it :)

@ Charlotte

Using an Acorn icon for the task manager is a legal grey area. A stylized acorn is a generic idea which (as a Google Images search will show) has been used dozens of times. However, there is still the matter of “passing off”, whereby a company can claim you’re trying to trick customers by imitating them. Although in the case of a task manager logo, it’s difficult to see what you’d be passing off as.

Thanks and I share the same perception about using the Acorn logo. But I think as Rick suggested: allowing the user to download it separately and on their own will would probably make it safer.

@ Druck

I have got unfinished version of Workspace from the 2000s

Yeah Workspace 4 would be totally awesome! But I am happy even with regular Workspace, it works like on Unix and that makes it very user friendly.

Also again not against including also MoreDesk for people who likes it.

The Plugin Protocol requires a JSON configuration file to be added to each plugin (!App directory, like we do for !Help for example) to be understood by the DME, so people can also include tools they want, just by adding that file and installing the tool in the DME via Global Control Install facility or Gadget Install Facility.

the JSON contains the tool category so Workspace and MoreDesk can be displayed in the activation window together under the category Multi-Desk Managers and the use can pick the one they want.

More details on these mechanisms will appear as we go guys.

This is very exciting! Is this where we will be able to follow and contribute? https://github.com/RISC-OS-Community

If you want to incorporate movements of windows using keyboard, my application TailWimp Lite ⁰ has some ideas you can nick. If you want to reuse any code, I can relicense those parts to Apache 2.0 (barring code that has been adapted and relicensed from Steve Fryatt, since he has to agree to that – should be obvious which files this applies to).

⁰ https://github.com/skymandr/TailWimpLite

However, there is still the matter of “passing off”, whereby a company can claim you’re trying to trick customers by imitating them. Although in the case of a task manager logo, it’s difficult to see what you’d be passing off as.

“Passing off”?

Hmmm, let’s consider:

What is the theme trying to look like? A 1980s Acorn desktop GUI, known to run on an ARM processor.
What will it actually be?
A desktop GUI running on an ARM processor that looks like it’s predecessor: the 1980s Acorn desktop GUI

Someone might be accused of “passing off”, but the proposed theme for a retro look on RISC OS making it look like older RISC OS isn’t it.

f you want to reuse any code, I can relicense those parts to Apache 2.0 (barring code that has been adapted and relicensed from Steve Fryatt, since he has to agree to that – should be obvious which files this applies to).

Didn’t Steve use CDDL?

Didn’t Steve use CDDL?

EUPL, and my adaptations are GPL.

@ Andreas

This is very exciting! Is this where we will be able to follow and contribute? https://github.com/RISC-OS-Community

Yes, and wow guys you’re faster than me at getting there looool :D

Yes so I have created a RISC OS Community “organisation” on github.com and it has all the repositories and the Project with the kamban and possibly (if I manage to finish the FetchURL Module) also the CI/CD.

If you want to incorporate movements of windows using keyboard, my application TailWimp Lite 0 has some ideas you can nick. If you want to reuse any code, I can relicense those parts to Apache 2.0 (barring code that has been adapted and relicensed from Steve Fryatt, since he has to agree to that – should be obvious which files this applies to).

Thanks a lot! Yes I am trying to have all the code compatible with the RO 5 license so that, when done and tested it could be just added to RO 5 as default and used on older RISC OS releases as an Open Source tool.

Please note: The final choice on reusing this effort in its entirety or portions (or not reusing it at all) is on ROD/ROOL, not me/us. So, I just want to make sure that if they want it they can easily reuse it while, at the same time, I/we can work on it without getting in the way of ROD/ROOL roadmap/scheduling etc… and we do not need to commit on what we’re trying to achieve.

Thanks Steve!

Someone might be accused of “passing off”, but the proposed theme for a retro look on RISC OS making it look like older RISC OS isn’t it.

However, there is still the matter of “passing off”, whereby a company can claim you’re trying to trick customers by imitating them.

I know lawyers are slimy beasts, but I’d grab a bag of popcorn to enjoy an in-depth explanation of how grabbing an old set of sprites that are a part of old, but existing, versions of RISC OS to use in a new version of RISC OS…is passing off anything. You aren’t claiming use of the logo, you aren’t reinventing it, nor applying it to something running on Windows or Android. You’re simply replicating it from one version of an OS to a newer version of the same OS.

Probably the only argument that holds water is copyright infringement for the older sprites, but I rather doubt Acorn are going to complain as they don’t exist, and the sources for that era are…legally messy.

But I think as Rick suggested: allowing the user to download it separately and on their own will would probably make it safer.

The basic idea came from one of the Linux distributions, that does exactly that with all the patent encumbered codecs. The base OS has none of it. If you want it, there’s an apt-get (or something) to install it all. Your problem, not theirs. ;-)

EUPL, and my adaptations are GPL.

Why not leave it as EUPL? You understand that there’s no GPL in the OS codebase for a very specific reason, right?

Why not leave it as EUPL?

Because the rest of my code was GPL and having dual licenses in the same codebase is annoying.

You understand that there’s no GPL in the OS codebase for a very specific reason, right?

I accept that someone at some point had a reason for the choice, and that’s enough for me. I respectfully suggest we don’t turn this thread into a license debate.

More details here at this link: https://paolozaino.wordpress.com/portfolio/risc-os-desktop-modernisation-project/

I’ve read the page in more detail, some minor tweaks on the text if you want them.

Then it’s time to start looking at any content in github…

I know lawyers are slimy beasts, but I’d grab a bag of popcorn to enjoy an in-depth explanation of how grabbing an old set of sprites that are a part of old, but existing, versions of RISC OS to use in a new version of RISC OS…is passing off anything.

Would we be allowed to lay our head on a pillow and say “wake me when you aren’t talking total s***” ??

NB. I’m kept on a short leash at work when suppliers are around.

I respectfully suggest we don’t turn this thread into a license debate.

Aw, the possibility of curing insomnia is so high. :)

@ Steve

I’ve read the page in more detail, some minor tweaks on the text if you want them.

sure, please :)

Then it’s time to start looking at any content in github…

Content on github will be available ASAP, setting up the repos and tasks as I have time, you could help on there too if you’d like, for task tracking using a regular kanban board that integrates with pull requests etc.

There is to review code of conduct and rules to contribute to anyone that fancy that kind of reading :)

Teams created and waiting for devs / reviewers / artists. First dev registered Julie Stamp, so thanks a lot to Julie!

Steve (or someone else) if you would like to take over the admin on the RISC OS Community github that would be awesome, because durign the week I have very limited possibilities.

P.S. Steve I think I should move the project presentation to github as well…

sure, please :)

here?

I am asking people to send me a message with their github account via my contact me so I can add people to the github community.

I’ll answer that message with my email, so we could use emails.

I am also wondering if people would like to have a slack channel, given that slack can be integrated with github.com process and so we can automate progresses etc…

In case someone is wondering the “contact me” on my blog works fine with NetSurf, so should be RISC OS friendly :)

Couple of questions to everyone:

1) What do you think about adopting !ConfiX as default configuration tool for the whole project?

2) What would it be you favourite way to ask question to the whole bunch? New threads in “General”? A mailing list? Stick to github.com for everything possible there?

Thanks guys!

What do you think about adopting !ConfiX as default configuration tool for the whole project?

What says Paul Reuvers? It is his baby (and a bonny one).

I would vote for Confix – still supported and updated (last within 12 months). Already well used by apps, and caters for the vast majority of configurations with a few parms – why re-invent the wheel?

Yes to Confix, and yes to new thread in General.