RISC OS London Show 2014

Would it be possible if there is a Internet link at the show – have a ‘ircnet’ terminal running – logged into RISCOS?

So people that for one reason or another – cant attend the show.

Perhaps running ‘!LIRC’

I don’t usually, but I’ll try to¹ comment on @RISCOSitory on Twitter as the day progresses (Probably even starting later today)

Hashtag? Erm… #rols sound okay?

¹ Provided I remember to so – which might happen at the very start, then stop happening after an hour. And, of course, it’ll also be affected by how busy I am, etc.

Hmm… slightly worryingly, my Pi doesn’t seem to be working this morning. Or my display isn’t working (for the Pi/DVI input).

Either way: Feck! :(

Edit: connecting via HDMI is also not getting a display. Poo. :(

I’ll pack a spare one for you, Vince.

I won’t make it to the show, but I’m currently lurking in #rols on open.ircnet.net. It’s awfully quiet in here :)

Shame you won’t make it Theo. It’s two years since I had a conversation with you at the London Show in which I floated the idea of producing a CD of Draw files of maps, based on OpenStreetMap data. Shortly afterwards Hilary started work on what became RiscOSM, which turned out to be way better than my original idea…

Perhaps running ‘!LIRC’

Perhaps was about as far as I got with !LIRC 1.86a on the Raspberry Pi, it crashes in the Utility module, even in ARMv5 mode. Is there a version around that does work?

I have managed to lurk on #rols on open.ircnet.net with LimeChat on the Mac and it’s awfully quiet in there.

I have managed to lurk on #rols on open.ircnet.net with LimeChat on the Mac and it’s awfully quiet in there.

#rols is the hashtag that Vince uses on twitter for the show. No one had picked up the idea of “live coverage” via IRC, AFAIK.

Perhaps was about as far as I got with !LIRC 1.86a on the Raspberry Pi, it crashes in the Utility module, even in ARMv5 mode. Is there a version around that does work?

Colin Ferris did update LIRC to work on modern hardware, I did some testing for him.
I’m not sure if it’s okay to share it though :(

No one had picked up the idea of “live coverage” via IRC, AFAIK.

Theo has created the channel, see above. From the #rols IRC channel itself, “theom set the topic at: 25 Oct 2014 01:05”. It is very quiet so far.

#rols on twitter has the advantage of actual content.

Colin Ferris did update LIRC to work on modern hardware

I am using !LIRC 1.86a (28 May 2012), it is now running on the Raspberry Pi, it was just a matter of ignoring the error as it turned out. OS5.20 on the Iyonix gives the same error. It appears to be associated with a call to “OS_SubstituteArgs” in ‘ScriptLib’.

Following the Twitter feed, I have two questions.

If Impression-X is 45% 32bit and a beta¹ version is available, doesn’t this imply that half the functionality is unavailable?

The new board. Does that “Free” bar say 2GiB? What the hell is somebody going to do with that on a RISC OS machine?!? You might need it for Linux and servers, but RISC OS!?!? [edit: that’s an IGEPv5 board, not the iMX one; same question though – what do you use 2GiB for in RISC OS? Loading fifty thousand copies of !Edit? ;-)]

The new board. It is nice that we are seeing some new hardware, though I suspect that what we are lacking the most is software.

Bryan Hogan said, of the new board, “Design done for industrial RISC OS clients”². Simon Inns, I hope you are reading this. For a group of RISC OS based companies to get this together shows either insanity or the assertation that “There is no commercial value in RISC OS anyway; it’s a fringe OS which is only of interest to hobbyists; the castle license restricts only those who have no commercial interest in an OS which has, let’s face it, zero commercial value.”³ is extremely inaccurate. After all, what psycho invests in making new hardware for a dead duck operating system that has zero value? Hmmm, let me think about that… <ponder> <ponder> <ponder>

¹ If the software is this incomplete, surely it should be an Alpha release? But then, maybe people wouldn’t want to pay £50 for an alpha version.

² https://twitter.com/rougol/status/526000659540480001

³ https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/2825?page=3#posts-35642

Rick, the tweets refer to two separate boards. The pic of the task manager is of an omap5 based IEGP v.5 not the I.MX6 board.

Any pictures/details/info of the iMX board yet?

Does that “Free” bar say 2GiB? What the hell is somebody going to do with that on a RISC OS machine?!?

Since I routinely work on audio files around a GiB in size I suspect I’d find it useful!

Jim

An i.MX6 board can also be sold under Linux. And be configured with 4 GB of RAM :)
Some boards are not pricey, but the chip does not run at very hight speeds.

I made a topic on i.MX6 boards.
https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/9/topics/2899

It could be very useful to know wich boards are compatible with RISC OS 5.

Five hours and no new tweets. Hmmm…

It could be very useful to know wich boards are compatible with RISC OS 5.

The problem is that, currently, there is no defined protocol for where peripherals should be mapped in nor is there much in the way of autoprobe facilities. It isn’t like the PCI bus.
With that in mind, software that works on one board may fail on another if there is the slightest change. Consider, for example, the Pi B+ → needed an up to date ROM image. Why? Slightly different hardware even though the SoC was identical.

Five hours and no new tweets. Hmmm…

All kidnapped by a combined squad from Thames Valley Park and Cardinal Place

The problem is that, currently, there is no defined protocol for where peripherals should be mapped in nor is there much in the way of autoprobe facilities.

Basic issue, you believe the HAL should present a standard hardware model to the OS with a set of present/absent flags for the devices so the OS knows what it has to work with in terms of functions rather than the specific hardware. If so, I agree.

The problem is that, currently, there is no defined protocol for where peripherals should be mapped in nor is there much in the way of autoprobe facilities. It isn’t like the PCI bus.

The Pi case is a bit different, since some external components did change. i.MX6 is much more integrated. Only one board (the IoT one) is different from the others. Support of Hummingboard, CuBox, Wandboard, Udoo and Utilite should really be the minimum. More hardware = more value for the i.MX6 port. And more value for RISC OS as a whole.

Highlights from the show:

ROOL had an updated DDE – many of the manuals have been updated although they estimated that the PRMs would be about 1.5 man years of work to update. The issue with the Pi Compute module, where RISC OS could not read/write the EMMC device, has now been solved and updated roms will be produced in due course, as the new sources are put into CVS.

CJE described progress with their portable and showed a keyboard unit developed for it. They also has KVMs suitable for newer machines and high quality USB audio.

RISC OSM, the open mapping software, were showing a 4k display, driven by a Pi with MDF tweaks, showing off their mapping.

R-Comp were selling DeleGate – the ultimate waste/recycling/undelete bin.

Impression X was on sale at £50 (normal price £60) which gets you the next four updates or a year whichever is shorter after which the software continues working but you need to renew to get further updates. It requires Aemulor to run as the 32 bitting is not finished but there are many bug fixes.

Raspberry Pi slow upload speed to the network (via LanMan) has been cured.

RISC OS 5.22 is expected to include Pandaboard when it is released.

The big announcement was that pre orders (a deposit of £150 against an expected price of around £699 but described as ‘similar in price to the ARMiniX’) were being taken for a new computer from R-Comp. This has been possible as an off-shoot from a partnership between four UK companies, a Swedish company, two German companies and a Dutch company. One of the partners is a hardware manufacturer and their principal financial interest is in producing a modern RISC OS computer with fast SATA drives (suitable for rock-solid server applications), gigabit hardware-supported network and high spec video. With a solid state drive of 128Gb the machine was demonstrated and looked fast. It is based on the Freescale i.MX6 which is on a processor board so that there are two boards connected like a sandwich. It has 2Gbytes of DDR 3 RAM and its raw CPU speed is about the same as the pandaboard. Although it is quad core, RISC OS uses only one core. Video is currently as good as the Pandaboard but that is simply the current state of development, which is continuing. PhotoDesk 3.10 was also demonstrated on the new machine. The South West show is the next show where we might see the new computer on sale and early orderers are likely to get their machines ‘by Christmas’. Currently CMOS in hardware and a real time clock are being worked on. Andrew concluded his talk by saying that software developers for the new platform were welcome and that the new machine was the first of recent hardware that could be construed as a complete replacement for RiscPC and Iyonix as it would be more capable in all areas.

ROOL said that in terms of ‘being a finished product’, the Pandaboard had now edged ahead of the Pi and so when 5.22 is produced it is likely to include the OMAP4 platform.

The ‘big announcement’ in more detail is given below:

“ARMini.MX

“The Next Generation RISC OS Computer

“R-Comp Interactive, in partnership with a group of RISC OS companies and enthusiasts, is proud to announce
the ARMini.MX computer (provisional name). Powered by the latest i.MX6 CPU architecture, and running the
latest RISC as 5 operating system, we know that this new system will excite anyone looking for a “next gen”
pure-ARM RISC as computer system. It’s purpose is clear – the new baseline RISC OS computer for the future.

“Perhaps the most exciting thing about the i.MX system is that it ticks all the boxes. Whereas previous ARM
boards (Pi, Beagle, Panda etc) have offered steadily increasing CPU performance, other aspects (disc / storage,
networking, video etc) were in some ways a step back from older machines such as the Iyonix. The RISC as
scene desperately needs a system that can completely supercede these old, much-loved warhorses. ARMed
(pardon the pun) with hardware gigabit ethernet, and SATA drive connectivity (up to 300Mb/sec) for SSDs, as
well as the latest high-speed ARM core and 2Gb DDR3 RAM, this new computer excels in every area.

“The new platform is the result of a “meeting of minds” of different RISC OS-orientated companies. The design
was selected for many reasons, not least the fact that the specification met the criteria of what a new RISC OS
computer needed. We also looked at software compatibility, longevity – the CPU chosen has a 10+ year
availability and flexibility. One of the partners is designing a whole new baseboard for the chip, for example.

“The new computer typically feels much faster in use than any previous ARM-powered system. Boot time is very
quick, and applications load in the blink of an eye. To give some real-world examples of performance, email
operations that took 30sec on an ARMini complete in -1 sec on the new machine. Similarly, compiling a RISC
OS ROM takes -50mins on Iyonix, down to about 20mins onARMiniX and 14mins on the new machine (and
that’s not even full speed!). This is backed up by an array of USB ports, and Gigabit networking which is done
in hardware rather than via USB. Coupled with the native SATA for storage, this frees the USB system of the
traditional performance shackles. Internal storage is available in various forms – whilst conventional hard drives
can be used, high speed solid state disks are the standard choice, and there is removable storage (SD and MS
card readers) too. For graphics, both DVI and HDMI are supported at high resolutions for digital connection to
modem LCD monitors and TVs. This ensures a better quality of picture – sharper and crisper than before.

“Whilst most modem RISC as applications (Ovation Pro, Techwriter, Artworks, DataPower, Messenger Pro,
NetFetch, NetSurf, Photodesk and so on) should work fine, some of your Iyonix-era software may need updating
and old RiscPC era apps will not work natively, although in most cases Aemulor solves this. Compatibility is
effectively the same as the ARMiniX due to similarities in CPU architecture (another reason for its selection).

“The form below allows you to register with us to be contacted when the machine is ready, or pre-order with a
deposit – early machines in time for Christmas all being well.”

Thanks for the brilliant update

Is there a website for impressionX? Can non-attendees buy a copy yet?

Basic issue, you believe the HAL should present a standard hardware model to the OS with a set of present/absent flags for the devices so the OS knows what it has to work with in terms of functions rather than the specific hardware. If so, I agree.

That’s exactly what the HAL is for, but, then, the HAL has to know about the specifics of the hardware permutations that may be present. Case in point, as mentioned above, the Pi B vs B+. Yes, some hardware did change, but this may be true of many boards. Why produce a clone of the exact same thing? The BananaPi is different yet again (and this time a completely different SoC).

ROOL had an updated DDE – many of the manuals have been updated

Any details on what has changed in the software?
My offer to look to trying to bring the ABC compiler more up to date with BBC BASIC changes since, well, at least the last twenty-odd years, is still open, if anybody is interested…

although they estimated that the PRMs would be about 1.5 man years of work to update.

Certainly, the current PRMs are way out of date and the vol 5a is a messy way to handle an errata set. All of that information ideally ought to be folded into the main four volumes, with additional chapters for all the new stuff (Toolbox, for example). It’s certainly a huge task.

If I can make one request – please please please get rid of those “this call is for internal use only” pages with no further documentation. Mark it as being an “internal” call, then document it. We can look in the sources now, so the lack of description is just an annoyance.

Does this mean that somebody has the text of the PRMs in something that resembles a file format known to modern man?

It requires Aemulor to run as the 32 bitting is not finished but there are many bug fixes.

Ah, that explains how that works, then. Thanks for clarifying it.

RISC OS 5.22 is expected to include Pandaboard when it is released.

At least it won’t be like iOS8. My iPad said I needed 5.3GB to install (4.9GB for iOS8.1) so I tried doing it via iTunes (apparently needs 6-700MB that way) and the iTunes estimation said the download would take eight hours. Then nine. Then ten. Then eleven. When it hit twelve hours, I aborted the download and closed iTunes.
That’s it. I’m staying with iOS7. Upgrading is too much of a PITA.

One of the partners is a hardware manufacturer and their principal financial interest is in producing a modern RISC OS computer

The first question that should be on everybody’s lips is – what are the likely applications of this? What is RISC OS being used for that would interest a manufacturer to produce a new piece of hardware?

with fast SATA drives (suitable for rock-solid server applications), gigabit hardware-supported network and high spec video.

I fear that RISC OS’s lack of inter-process memory protection and userland modules running with kernel privilege may be something of a turn-off for serious server use. This isn’t to say it is impossible – for all we know work is going on behind the scenes to transition user modules to SYS mode, locking out SVC mode for kernel exclusive access. If so, I would support such a change (even if it would render everything ever written incompatible). You can placate me with proper Unicode support, I’m easily pleased. ;-)

You do know that high-spec video is so not a criteria for a server?

I would hope that the BananaPi would put the frighteners on the RaspberryPi foundation to get them talking to Broadcom about a Pi Master in 2016 or 2017. The BananaPi, supposed to look and feel a lot like the Pi we know, has SATA and Gigabit networking on board, $59 at Amazon.com. The graphics chip isn’t so good, so this is somewhere a Pi Master could excel.

<aside> http://www.bananapi.com/index.php/component/content/article?layout=edit&id=59 – home routers are already little computers, but this might be the first time anybody has tried to make a home router that is a little computer. Potentially kind of cool, potentially a security nightmare. </aside>

Although it is quad core, RISC OS uses only one core.

Hmmm, I think the incentive to start some sort of multicore support has just walked in the door. Hello.

Currently CMOS in hardware

Isn’t that just so 1990? ;-)

and a real time clock are being worked on.

Yay! It blows my mind that these little SoCs don’t have this as standard. Or, in the case of the Beagle, they do but fitting the battery is a pain.

<aside> In the case of the Beagle, what power is required for the RTC? 3V? Could I run it from two AA cells in a holder with a diode in-line? </aside>

that the new machine was the first of recent hardware that could be construed as a complete replacement for RiscPC and Iyonix as it would be more capable in all areas.

? I only used a friend’s Iyonix for short periods so I’m not really aware of the spec or capabilities (except the USB transfers being appallingly slow, but I believe that issue was subsequently fixed). We’re going back a long time (Frobnicate issue 29, page 7, or listen to a podcast read by me seven years ago (embarrassing!!!).

That said, a machine that I used to use a lot is a RiscPC. With the exception of podules (which can’t be supported due to technical reasons, though if Jon Kortink was still around here, I bet he’d have some sort of GPIO→Podule interface working), the Pi already offers better. Better speed, better graphics, better networking, better memory. And the Pi is the cheap itty-bitty board. Beagles, Pandas, Kittens, whatever – they’re all higher spec. So, yeah, I don’t quite understand the statement as we’ve already left the older boxes behind.

This is, however, all good news. To have RISC OS now usable on a SATA-capable multicore device… this is a huge step forward. <smile!>

Just noticed the multilingual announcement. Cool.

As with the other Romance Languages, French does not capitalise day/month names.
[experience: as a Brit, I do this comme d’hab, and I keep getting called on it at work]

[[at least the people in charge are tolerant of my yyyy/mm/dd date style!
they put up with that, I put up with words like “saprem” instead of “cet après-midi”…]]

Does that “Free” bar say 2GiB? What the hell is somebody going to do with that on a RISC OS machine?!?

Well we use most of the 1GiB RAM on a Pandaboard in order to speed up the conversion time for OpenStreetMap data. For the British Isles data, the node index will not fit in RAM on a 512MiB machine and conversion would take several days. On a Pandaboard it takes 14 hours. With faster storage you could really reduce that.

At present we cannot convert the data for Germany or France in one go because:

1. the source files exceed 2GiB
2. the node index would probably exceed the 1GiB or RAM in the Pandaboard.

A machine with 2GiB and faster storage could make this kind of task possible.

RISC OSM, the open mapping software, were showing a 4k display, driven by a Pi with MDF tweaks, showing off their mapping.

The 4k display was being shown by Leo White. It was lucky chance that he happened to be next to the Sine Nomine Software stand where I was selling RiscOSM. When I heard such a large screen was on display, I suggested that displaying a gigantic map might be a genuinely useful thing one could do with it.

The map on show would have been A1 in size if printed! It took absolutely ages to render though — about 20 minutes maybe? That’s why Leo exported a sprite and displayed that.