Status of Zap

tEEDit is the tedious version of tedit

Ah, now tedious I can relate to :)

@DavidS: if you really want a Zap-like editor for BASIC only, itself written in BASIC, with massively reduced usefullness (but with some added), try !Reggraph, at www.tellima.nl/riscos. I would not ‘recommend’ it because it still has a long list of things that don’t work as I would like. I myself always use it as it has a simple program check, xref, limited colour coding and no ‘overwrite’ setting.
Writing your own editor is very useful, as you leave out things that you do not need and include things that you always missed. Compared to writing compilers or maintaining other people’s programs, a simple editor is easy. Really. Steps I would propose:
(1) multitasking program functionality with a main screen behind which is an indirected sprite, with redraw code (2) code to plot characters into indirected screen *. (3) logic to determine what must be converted to characters and where in the sprite to write those chars. (4) code for loading and saving text (5) inserting + deleting characters; moving + copying selections; searching and replacing etc.
*for a few things like plotting characters, while editing large files, BASIC definitely is not fast enough, not even on Titaniums, Pi’s and the like. C accompanied by source is much better.
Above editor began as a quick-and-dirty utility, not as an editor, that’s why it is BASIC+assembler.

I am guessing that no one here is familiar with tEEdit.

What gave us away?

However, giving up isn’t actually one of my known attributes so…

APDL archive, zip file b071, and sub archive file TwEdit – sort of assuming your
“TeEdit” is a typo of “TwEdit”

26-bit with 66 non-32 bit code in the RunImage
The MemAlloc module is not 32 bit
The MkTwinMod BASIC file will create a 26 bit module

So, “requires a little work” sums up its status with regard to compatibility with current hardware and OS

Thanks to those who offered to help. I’ve already got email addresses for Julie and Dave, and will be in touch some time this week, if time permits. We probably need to work a few things out about how to proceed, and doing it here “by committee” probably won’t get us anywhere fast. :)

@Paulo, @Andreas — if you’re both still interested in advising or helping out, could you drop me an email (my address is in the footer of my website) with a way to contact you. If either of you have got experience with community projects on GitHub, that would be useful — I’ve got some ideas on how things might be set up, but am open to better ideas from those who know what they’re talking about!

@ Steve Fryatt

Contacted you through the email I have found on your website :)

After one too many crash on a post-Iyonix machine, the other day I had a look to try to find the latest patches from Tank or Rick, but several links I found from earlier forum articles were broken. Where’s the best place to go at the moment for the latest unofficial updates to Zap?

Where’s the best place to go at the moment for the latest unofficial updates to Zap?

At a guess I’d say !Store.

Store.

Zap is the original release for 26 bit machines, as far as I know.

Zap Ultimate is the one with all the latest patches for 32 bit machines.
It may still crash from time to time, but then this is the second time I’ve written this because Firefox crashed. :-/ I use Zap a lot so on an ARMv7 Pi2, so it is usable. And with the ability to pick apart C jump tables and recognise function calls, its behaviour in disassembly is second to none (sorry Fred).

But note that there’s an outstanding issue with block edit and tabs: https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/4/topics/15669
(plus it shows up some oddly different behaviour between the Pi CPU and the mini.m)

recognise function calls ??

recognise function calls ??

Yup. If your code is using proper APCS function entries, Zap will not only recognise the start of the function (and annotate it as such), but will also annotate any branches to that function with the name of the function being called.

If you’re in disassembly mode, be sure that you have annotations turned on.

I use Zap a lot so on an ARMv7 Pi2, so it is usable.

Should we have a whip round to get a Pi 4 horse and carted out to provincial France? Although Zap doesn’t seem to have many more problems than on the Iyonix on the Pi 4, it was more flaky on the ARMx6 mini.m

Rick that sounds interesting – isn’t the latest Zap version hidden in !Store.

Be nice if Store’s free download was available from other OS’s.

Paying Rick for his Progs and updates I think would be good – I don’t think he makes a fortune cleaning floors :-|

And with the ability to pick apart C jump tables and recognise function calls, its behaviour in disassembly is second to none (sorry Fred).

Okay, I’ll bite. :-)

Whilst the above is true for the current stable release (se4.69f11, f12 coming soon). It’s definitely not true for se470 as its Dump mode is pretty much on par with Zap’s Code mode. Better in some ways as it also annotates C calls in applications/modules grabbed from memory.

If you want to try it out yourself, the zip for the latest test release (se470a13) can be found here

The version I have sitting here has even more features, such as annotating fast service call tables and decompressing compressed applications/modules in situ (if you have the DDE).

It’s definitely not true for se470 as its Dump mode is pretty much on par with Zap’s Code mode.

A couple of snippets using StrongED 4.70a14 (04-Jul-2020), which is a13 for >2GB.

From an “Hello World”

0000809C : 4B000175 : uA@K : BLmi    &00008678          ; clib: x$stack_overflow
000080A0 : E28F0F02 : BOè‚ : ADR     R0,&000080B0
000080A4 : EB000189 : âA@Î : BL      &000086D0          ; clib: _printf

...

000080E4 : E9910006 : F@ëÈ : LDMIB   R1,{R1,R2}
000080E8 : EB000172 : rA@Î : BL      &000086B8          ; clib: _clib_initialise
000080EC : E59F002C : ,@ü : LDR     R0,&00008120
000080F0 : E3500000 : @@P„ : CMP     R0,#0
000080F4 : 128F0000 : @@èR : ADRne   R0,&000080FC
000080F8 : E49DF004 : Dù‰ : LDR     PC,[R13],#4
000080FC : E1A0C00D : M¿†· : MOV     R12,R13
00008100 : E92DD800 : @ÿ-È : STMDB   R13!,{R11,R12,R14,PC}
00008104 : E24CB004 : D∞L‚ : SUB     R11,R12,#4
00008108 : EB0000FD : ˝@@Î : BL      &00008504          ; clib: _kernel_command_string
0000810C : E59F100C : LPü : LDR     R1,&00008120
00008110 : EB000166 : fA@Î : BL      &000086B0          ; clib: _main
00008114 : E91BA800 : @®[È : LDMDB   R11,{R11,R13,PC}

From SOManager grabbed from RMA

2063B874 : EB0012E8 : ËR@Î : BL      &2064041C          ; clib: memcpy
2063B878 : E1A00007 : G@†· : MOV     R0,R7
2063B87C : EBFFFEA1 : °˛ˇÎ : BL      &2063B308          ; call: os_read_var_val_size
2063B880 : E3500001 : A@P„ : CMP     R0,#1
2063B884 : E1A06000 : @`†· : MOV     R6,R0
2063B888 : 1A00001D : ]@@Z : Bne     &2063B904
2063B88C : E1A00004 : D@†· : MOV     R0,R4
2063B890 : EBFFFE9C : ú˛ˇÎ : BL      &2063B308          ; call: os_read_var_val_size
2063B894 : E3550000 : @@U„ : CMP     R5,#0

it was more flaky on the ARMx6 mini.m

The mini.m seems to be one of the sources of problems with Manga. While there’s a pretty good chance that there’s something I’ve cocked up, I do wonder why my Pi2 works, but the mini.m doesn’t.

That said, I’ve not done any programming in months. The weather has been good for working outside. Or, like today, sitting just outside the front door with the tablet.

It was supposed to rain/thunderstorms today between morning and afternoon. Well, it’s heavy outside, there’s a gentle breeze and it’s like the UV is blasting through the clouds, and it’s definitely t-shirt weather.
If it doesn’t rain by ~8pm, I’ll need to hook up the hose for the plants.

isn’t the latest Zap version hidden in !Store.

Depends upon your definition of “hidden”. Yes, it’s on Store and it can only be accessed from RISC OS, but on the other hand it will only work on RISC OS. ;-)

It would be nice to have a portal to Store available from a browser, but I’d imagine it’s not a priority.

Paying Rick for his Progs and updates I think would be good

No thank you. I would feel obligated. The current arrangement of the odd favour works fine for me. If I was in this to make money, I’d not be writing code for RISC OS…

If you really want to send some money somewhere, please make a donation to the Centre Eugene Marquis in Rennes if you can do so in France, or to the appropriate cancer research centre in your country.

I don’t think he makes a fortune cleaning floors :-|

No, the pay is crap. So crap, in fact, that not only do I not pay any tax (and that’s including the TV licence ¹), but every year I accumulate an excess that would be subtracted if I did have to pay tax.

On the other hand, excepting special days, I’m the chief bog brush wrangler between 9am and 4.45pm. Outside of those times, I don’t think about work. As long as I’ve tried to do a reasonably good job in the circumstances, I clock out and go home. It’s pretty stress free. And I know I’m not going to be called at 3am because of a cleaning emergency. ;-)

Note: Actually, there’s a load of things that I do besides cleaning floors and toilets. So much so that a few years ago my boss wanted me to write down exactly what I do because she sees me walking around a lot… so what do I actually do?
Then I got ill and was signed off for a week, and she realised from all of the stuff that wasn’t done that, no, I don’t just spend seven hours walking in circles.
But I like my job because I do most of it entirely alone. I don’t need to interact with anybody else other than the expected pleasantries. It doesn’t exactly help with my French, but I get left the hell alone, so as far as I’m concerned… Win!

Okay, I’ll bite. :-)

I thought you would. It was a big enough hook with a juicy worm attached. :-)

as its Dump mode is pretty much on par with Zap’s Code mode.

This doesn’t surprise me. You’ve done great work in bringing StrongEd up to Zap’s level, and then going on and surpassing it.

If there’s a naff rainy day and I can’t think of what to do (never been a problem in the past, mind…) then I’ll give 470a13 a whirl.

¹ I don’t watch French TV, but I have a dish on an outbuilding for British TV… though I’ve not watched that in ages. It’s pretty much Prime Video/Netflix now.

Thank you. I should have thought of trying !Store.

The mini.m seems to be one of the sources of problems with Manga. While there’s a pretty good chance that there’s something I’ve cocked up, I do wonder why my Pi2 works, but the mini.m doesn’t.

Pi2 v1, or Pi2 v2? Differences in processor if you recall – run through the code with a fine tooth comb, and you may find an alignment issue.

Then I got ill and was signed off for a week, and she realised from all of the stuff that wasn’t done that, no, I don’t just spend seven hours walking in circles.

Yup. I was off longer, and they took on two people. Those are now heading toward permanent status as one of the “geniuses” decided that with an increased head count the team could do more and when I went back they piled more on.

If there’s a naff rainy day and I can’t think of what to do (never been a problem in the past, mind…) then I’ll give 470a13 a whirl.

Let go of Zap Rick, feel the power of StrongED :)

I don’t watch French TV, but I have a dish on an outbuilding for British TV… though I’ve not watched that in ages. It’s pretty much Prime Video/Netflix now.

Similar I suppose: I watched the Spanish F1 race¹ highlights tonight and the wife puts on various net delivered concert videos etc. Mostly I’m reading and finding excuses to not finish tidying the wilderness outside the house or the pile of debris that ought to be a workroom for me.

¹ In which it was demonstrated that having the fastest car is not the only factor.
As the late Nikki Lauder said repeatedly “we have the best and fastest package” and still others miss the point that the package includes the nut behind the wheel.

Pi2 v1, or Pi2 v2? Differences in processor if you recall – run through the code with a fine tooth comb, and you may find an alignment issue.

I think this is unlikely. Pi2 v1 and mini.m are both ARMv7, so have the same alignment issues. Pi2 v2 is ARMv8, so it would be close to a miracle if the code works fine on Pi2 v2, but not on mini.m.

However, there is an interesting difference between mini.m (Cortex-A9) and Pi2 v1 (Cortex-A7): one is out-of-order, the other is in-order. No idea how that could make a difference, maybe Zap has triggered a true CPU bug? Good luck tracking that one down…

Far more likely to be alignment issues from what I’ve seen.

Outside of those times, I don’t think about work.

I found shift work good for the same reason. Once I had handed over to my relief I didn’t think about work and knew all the problems I had handed over would either be solved or moot next time I was in on shift.

Working on days all the crap in my in-tray was stll there the next day I came in. Only relocation or promotion would solve the in-tray problem.

Will be interesting to see how working from home works out – ie logging hours worked and taking breaks etc.

You’ve done great work in bringing StrongEd up to Zap’s level, and then going on and surpassing it.

Hardly that! StrongEd is not yet capable of editing BASIC programmes properly – it throws away the line numbers and then makes up its own by renumbering as you save it. It is entirely useless to me while it has this major bug.

it throws away the line numbers

Doesn’t ‘Global choices>BASIC>Strip line numbers OFF’ work for you?

StrongEd is not yet capable of editing BASIC programmes properly – it throws away the line numbers and then makes up its own by renumbering as you save it.

Line numb… Line num… Line nu… No, you’ve lost me. What are these line thingies of which you speak?

Line numb… Line num… Line nu… No, you’ve lost me. What are these line thingies of which you speak?

I am pretty sure that I used “GOSUB” on an Amstrad CPC in 1985, but that was probably the last time a line number made any sense in any programming language.