Wakefield Acorn & RISC OS Computer Show 2017

It certainly wasn’t my intention to disparage people’s efforts either. Perhaps you could take my post above, written as an interested outsider, as some sort of cautionary tale about PR. It wasn’t people’s effort (or investment) that I was saying was “so RISC OS”, it was the manner in which the information has been relayed to the world. You might think you are only speaking to a small group of hardcore users at a show, but it’s 2017, not 1998, this stuff leaks out quickly and unless you have handled the way that information is divulged, it’s probably going to come out wrong.

I’ll look forward to watching Vince’s video and I’ll keep an eye out for what comes from this development, good luck guys.

I think the “lesson to learn” here is that PR wasn’t.

Rick, you found a shorter way of saying what I was saying.

RODL – the suggestion of producing a decent PR training/advice/shell document was serious. The prepared web page(s) idea from Rick is one idea to take in to that.
Something where the developer can use a prepared shell of promotional material.

Just to be clear, the reason for no formal announcement is precisely to avoid vapourware claims. If you notice, I rarely announce any product that isn’t ready or close to it (esp in recent times) because I think everyone has been burned too many times in the past.

Understand that, but as Rick and I have been saying “the PR wasn’t” – hence my suggestion. PR/marketing isn’t something everyone can do (the “communications department”¹ at work demonstrate that with every announcement they make.²) so sorting out some guidance would improve things all round the scene.
Bear in mind back in the 80’s Windows vs RO, the better setup³ had worse PR, how did that work out?

I just tend to like names which are fairly clear about what they are.

Totally agree. If there is any legacy to my years at work it pretty much has to be that the DNS names of servers and even switches reflect where they are and what they do.

¹ That’s “spin doctors” to all normal people.
² Adopting standard English spelling and grammar is something they might like to consider.
³ To be totally accurate Windows was the worst GUI system even on a PC

To be totally accurate Windows was the worst GUI system even on a PC

GEM was pretty poor…

I think where Windows really excelled (in its third incarnation) was that it threw away the ridiculous situation of dozens of standalone products (like WordPerfect 5.1) each with their own video drivers (and quirks) along with potentially hundreds of printer drivers (and quirks), and Wild Guessing when your specific printer wasn’t directly supported. I’ve driven a laser printer as an LQ before…

Windows might not have been terribly good, but it was the solution that came when a solution was desperately needed.

GEM was pretty poor…

I think where Windows really excelled (in its third incarnation)

GEM was more reliable than Windows. BTW when you speak of “third incarnation” I suspect you actually mean fourth incarnation = win3.1 as that was the first version that wasn’t actually a pile of steaming.

Bear in mind my work had me having to fix stuff on DOS, Windows(incarnations from 3.0), MacOS (original with really irritating GUI clearly designed by a command line geek), GEM, Unix, BBC micro (Pharmacy prescription queuing) with scripts and Basic routines used to convert certain file formats to others (Olivetti word processor to WordStar took me a weekend).
As for printers, well “printing just works” is a running joke at work. It’s been a running joke for over 20 years.

My “so RISC OS” jab was somewhat tongue-in-cheek (hence the ;-) smiley) but I hope it has made people think a bit about the way certain kinds of (pre-)announcements can lead to unrealistic expectations. I understand that there’s a need to create a “buzz” around new products, and people certainly enjoy speculating about new developments and what new things will be released at a show. While it’s better to have the information than to be in the dark about it, is there a need to hype up something that is only indirectly affecting users right now?

The Icon Bar show report is informative, though I’m looking forward to seeing the video of Richard Brown’s presentation. I think the idea of creating an organisation around funding development for (or around) the operating system is interesting, but others will focus more on the specific projects that the organisation may work on and be frustrated when there is an embargo on information about them. The article falls back into this trap: we are told that the first project is “very, very exciting” but aren’t allowed to know what it is!

As I said, I’m more interested in the organisational details, so I think that announcement is significant enough in itself. Having said that, funding models for sustainable software development are a minor interest of mine, so I realise that I may be in the minority here. :-)

I wrote the Iconbar report from the viewpoint of knowing what is being planned (and having put some my own money into it). But the details are Richard’s to announce when he sees fit. If I had not said that I had inside information on which to base our enthusiasm, I could have equally been accused of being overly optimistic or naive. The point I was trying to get across is that all the groups, and some of them only learned about it at the Show due to the speed at which things have happened, are really excited by the ideas being put forward.

I think the idea of creating an organisation around funding development for (or around) the operating system is interesting, but others will focus more on the specific projects that the organisation may work on and be frustrated when there is an embargo on information about them.

It might be strange, but I’m quite happy that they run the projects on a stealth basis, I’m more interested in how the setup will work. A framework to work within with support for the developers would be rather useful I think.

The article falls back into this trap: we are told that the first project is “very, very exciting” but aren’t allowed to know what it is!

Actually I thought the article was far nearer to what should have happened even though it actually came from a third party. I said somewhat earlier that I could understand the NDA on the projects and if everyone else has any sense they will too. Yes it’s mildly irritating not knowing but the benefits in not having the actual developers nagged about latest progress is worth it.

What needs to be clear is the scheme – there’s plenty enough to discuss in what the scheme can do for the developers.
You never know, maybe some of the users actually have skills that can be utilised to benefit the scheme but no one asked.

I don’t normally post a lot but I see that the normal
“I cant get to the show [insert reason here] and no one is
spoon feeding me news about it” brigade are out in force.

Well I and several other people went to the show and thoroughly
enjoyed ourselves looking at the latest offerings listening to the
theatre talks and spending money.

As for no tweets from ROOL, it may have been that they were too busy
answering show visitors questions and selling stuff to help pay the bills.

Of course you may think that the ROOL guys get free transport and hotel
accommodation but I don’t think that they do.

The WROCC team worked hard to put on the show and new exhibitors were
attending and the stay at homes whine as usual.

BTW there were two Dutch lads at the show.

If it was up to me the non attenders would have to wait till a paid for
magazine wrote up the show. Vince and Mark are too kind.

I don’t normally post a lot but I see that the normal
“I cant get to the show [insert reason here] and no one is
spoon feeding me news about it” brigade are out in force.

Interesting viewpoint but I think that of the people you might tag with that I’m probably the only one in this country. I wonder if Rick would care to give a cost estimate of travelling to and from Wakefield in cash and percentage of income terms.

Of course you may think that the ROOL guys get free transport

Not really, Mr Sprowson made his own way from his home to Nuneaton the other year, I did the “taxi” service from there to Kenilworth (and back at the end of the day)¹ otherwise the cost of transport would have stretched ROOL or his funds overmuch for a small show.

¹ and the nail marks in the door handles hardly showed :)

@ Steve Pampling,

Oh! Has Dave left the country then?

As for Rick, being unable to get to the show does not
excuse banging head on table comments about the show before
he has had more information than one jaundiced view.

I’m sure that Rob and the MUG Club were grateful for your help.
Just as I am sure that if more people had turned up to the shows at
Kenilworth then the Midland show would still exist.

I will reiterate that people who turn up at shows spend money and
encourage development. As well as enjoying themselves of course.

What are the whiners going to do when lack of attendance to shows
means that there are no shows to demand instant updates from? Shows
need people paying at the door to remain viable.

If anyone would like to volunteer to run a live feed from shows,
at their own expense naturally, then I am sure it would be appreciated
by the show organizers.

Me? I am looking forwards to the London show and possibly a trip to
Cambridge in May due to a leaflet at the Wakefield show ;-)).

Regards Ron.

If it was up to me the non attenders would have to wait till a paid for magazine wrote up the show.

Back to the early 90s? That also sounds a lot like “so RISC OS”.

@ Steve Pampling,

Oh! Has Dave left the country then?

I tend to think of Dave as grumpy rather than whingey even in the new grump reduced version. :)

Whinge, moan

Explanation

Back pedal

I’m not sure if I’ve misquoted anyone there, but that’s how this thread reads to me.

Anyway, the video is now online

@ Steffen Huber,

Well if a self funded/crowd funded instant feed volunteer
comes along then the stay at homes would be happy I suppose.

Though they would probably complain about the feed quality.

I’ve used up my posting allotment for a while so….

Regards Ron.

Anyway, the video is now online

But, Vince, it won’t work on my computer!

Or is that the big secret? Getting YouTube to work under RISC OS?

Sorry, did that seem like a whinge?

Getting YouTube to work under RISC OS?

You can use Murnong and FFPlay to use YouTube.
If this not work, contact me. I can send a link to the latest inofficial “alpha package”. Have made a unperfect video as a test how it works (after one minute). MPlayer should handle this.

You can use Murnong and FFPlay to use YouTube.

Vince will have understood that I was being ironic – that’s a bit like sarcastic but in a more knowing/understood sense.

Of course, if I actually want to see the video, I’ll use Linux!

I use MPlayer to listen to Radio 4! Recommended!

Or is that the big secret? Getting YouTube to work under RISC OS?

Well irony apart now you see why RISC OS Developments are needed, if you didn’t know already, as this is clearly one of the gaps in the RISCOS experience that other OS’s have covered.

I know nothing of what they have planned as I have not signed any NDA/promised any sum of money , well at least at this time, but I know that we need to continue to encourage the push for elements like this to be completed.

I think with things progressing so well on the hardware and basic OS and some good levels of money coming in to the market due to the hardware sales , at least by recent historical standards, then we must strike whilst we are on a up cycle and ensure that RISCOS develops and does things that people take for granted as that will also encourage new users etc and start hopefully further uplifts.

I know we have many a false dawn over the years and that why I think Richard and Andrew are trying to do things in a slightly different way to ensure the naysayers don’t say I told you so when things don’t come about.

No doubt there will be those who will still not come along for the ride citing various reasons why not to invest in new kit/os/software but that is just life and though we need to bring along as many users as possible the reality is that not all will.

In the meantime if you can come along to a local user group meeting , there are many active ones still, or the odd show as that is the best way to get information and talk to the developers etc.

Vince will have understood that I was being ironic

Indeed – but Raik’s reply is a timely one. There are a (hopefully vanishingly small) number of people who don’t have a machine on which they can watch videos on YouTube, and for whom Murnong will therefore be useful¹.

¹ This might not include those who’s machines are a little, shall we say, long in the tooth. I’m not sure offhand what minimum spec is needed for Murnong.

If it was up to me the non attenders would have to wait till a paid for
magazine wrote up the show. Vince and Mark are too kind.

Why not. But to really keep it secret, it was a bad idea to tease it on Internet. No?
Anyway, there is nothing to see, so nothing to talk. For now.

Nota:

If all that wasn’t enough for you, the Wakefield show will be the event
where we unveil our new joint venture (with Richard Brown of Orpheus and
others) – RISC OS Developments Ltd. A massive project for the benefit of
all modern RISC OS users, this exciting new venture is our commitment to
the future of our beloved platform/operating system.

Everything was told BEFORE the show.
So no need to pay for a magazine after all :)

I wonder if Rick would care to give a cost estimate of travelling to and from Wakefield in cash and percentage of income terms.

I have absolutely no idea. It would need to be by train, then air, then train. Anything else would take too long and involve missing days from work. Might happen anyway, can’t think how I’d get from here Saturday morning to there…Saturday morning… Maybe Friday night, but then we’re talking a place to stay. And this is a rural area, the train nearby only runs maybe 5 times a day (mostly it takes ados to school and back).
Repeat in the other direction. And as for pay, don’t ask, I’m basically a SMICard…

Then, of course, there’s the psychological issue. Think 2016/06/23.

What are the whiners going to do when lack of attendance to shows means that there are no shows to demand instant updates from?

While shows require people to visit, fair enough, this whole issue revolves around an announcement made at a show with only hearsay in the first hours after the show, with more balanced information being provided by third parties later. As somebody else said – so eighties. There is a big world out there. Ignore it at your peril.

If anyone would like to volunteer to run a live feed from shows,
at their own expense naturally,

It’s something I’d try out of I was there. One of my never used perks of my mobile contract is that I get 3GB/year data in the EU when out of France. That ought to provide enough for a number of live broadcasts to YouTube at 480p or 360p…

he has had more information than one jaundiced view.

Said view did not come with a disclaimer and at the time no information was available from the websites of the companies involved.
But, hey, if it’s simpler/easier too berate me for taking somebody’s opinion at face value, go for it.

Summary: things are afoot, we don’t get to find out what, only that it is. It’s great that there is interest in investment, but maybe the “big announcement” status should wait until there is a big announcement? Perhaps?

I wonder if Rick would care to give a cost estimate of travelling to and from Wakefield in cash and percentage of income terms.

Less than for me; flights from NZ to England seem to start at around £1200 then add accommodation etc on top of that and you’re talking a lot of money for a show! :)

Thanks to Vince for putting the video up, and to Mark for writing the show report. I really appreciate the effort that went in to those.

So the upshot is that there’s a company that will manage funding for projects, finding developers/engineers to work on whatever is required. It sounded like a consultancy, though the idea that the results of the work funded through the company are released for the benefit of everyone makes it sound like a cooperative. Some details still seem to be missing – or maybe I got distracted while listening to the presentation. Will the developers/engineers be employees of the company or will they be doing work for hire?

It sounds like it is all currently revolving around a single, large project, which to me sounds a bit risky depending on how well that project goes, but everything has to start somewhere. I still wonder about the mixture of secrecy with “something big is happening” type language, but that’s modern marketing, I suppose.

Thanks for putting the video up so quickly Vince. At the risk of being accused of being a whinger(*) again, it’s A) great news that there is new money being put into the scene! and B) still slightly odd to me. If the project is defined and the appropriate money has now been raised, why the secrecy? But maybe it makes sense to those in the know! Seems like I would still be walking away from the show scratching my head, unless I had a grand or more to put in.

Anyway, hopefully we will find out what the project is soon!

• I put, I would guess, 100-250 into the RISC OS scene in various ways, every year. Which isn’t a lot, granted, but I’ve been an interested observer, not a regular user, for many years, hence my interest in the original announcement and my attempts at finding out what it was about on the day. When I read the announcement about RISC OS Developments Ltd’s timeslot in the show, I actually got interested enough to price up flights to London from NI, and train to Wakefield plus a hotel, but as it was only a few days before the show, it wasn’t really feasible. If I’d booked it a couple of months or so ago, it would have been the regular cheapo price of 15 quid each way from Belfast. I promise to attempt to attend the next show!

If the project is defined and the appropriate money has now been raised, why the secrecy?

Imagine that it’s, say, a port of the current version of Firefox complete with YouTube support (this is just a wild guess). It’s one thing to have decided on that and have some money, but if there are no developers with the necessary skills then the work just won’t get done. It makes sense to not announce something until you’re sure that it’s possible.