Automatically moving pinboard to front.

Perhaps I’m missing an obvious trick here, but is there any simple way to temporarily hide every window, and so gain an unobstructed view of the Pinboard? And if not, are there any third-party apps that provide this functionality?

is there any simple way to temporarily hide every window, and so gain an unobstructed view of the Pinboard

Fred Graute’s ToggleBD.

is there any simple way to temporarily hide every window, and so gain an unobstructed view of the Pinboard

StrongED can do this with CTRL-PageUp and CTRL-PageDown, defined in the KeyList Global section of BaseMode.ModeFile.

is there any simple way to temporarily hide every window

control alt iconise

It is also a planned feature for Pinboard 2.0, but one we’re still thinking about regarding UI

Shift F12 toggles bringing the iconbar to the front could something similar be used for the pinboard.

There are essentially two challenges UI-wise for this feature.

1) Deciding on a keypress or mouse movement (useful info, Kevin, thanks). For example, using mouse to bottom of screen brings iconbar to front, perhaps holding the mouse at the top of the screen should do the same for the pinboard?

2) Indicating to the user where all their windows went. This may seem obvious, but it can be a real problem on other operating systems. You bring the “desktop” to the front (ie. hiding all windows), then do something – how do you get your windows back, and how do you know that they’re behind there? I think there needs to be some onscreen indication that some windows are hidden and how to get them back.

Iconising all the windows is certainly an option, but equally it’s a bit of a pain bringing them all back.

As you can tell, this is a feature that is (fairly) easy to impliment, but very tricky to design!

If there is a way of hiding all the windows, using it again should restore them all. There is nothing worse on other OS’s of doing this (from clicking somewhere in the taskbar, or even worse wobbling a window when dragging it), and finding they don’t all restore to where they were.

For example, using mouse to bottom of screen brings iconbar to front, perhaps holding the mouse at the top of the screen should do the same for the pinboard?

Well, that’s an excellent way of knackering the desktop extension utilities that present the user with a virtual multiscreen (vertical and horizontal) desktop.

A key combination like print screen, or sh-print screen to toggle the status.
That’s toggle for the reasons Druck gives.

I think there needs to be some onscreen indication that some windows are hidden and how to get them back.

An icon that looks like multiple windows on the Pinboard or iconbar.

this is a feature that is (fairly) easy to implement, but very tricky to design!

Faults in the above?

Immediate comment would be Print scrn has very specific functions in RISC OS (ie. printing from most applications), but more seriously, it relies on knowing a keypress combination, which is far from intuitive. Sure, we could put it on a menu, and let users learn the keypress, but that’s a pretty old-skool approach. Not saying it is a bad approach, just not the slickest, and particularly inappropriate for touch.

If you read what I said carefully, I said holding the mouse at the top – ie. there would have to be a few second hold, as there is for the iconbar. I don’t know these “desktop extension utilities” but my guess is that they move smoothly from screen to screen? Actually, examples would be really helpful – don’t assume we all use the same utilities, esp if they aren’t part of the OS (I have genuinely never used any such program since, I think, RISC OS 3.1). I’m guessing MoreDesk, but as I say, never used it, so worked example would be extremely insightful please.

My feeling would then be to bring pinboard to front and have some kind of transparent banner (in the same area, as Druck indicated) or something stating “click here to restore windows”. Again, it needs to be super-clear, and I worry that an icon on the iconbar (alongside 15-20+ others) might not stand out clearly enough.

My experience is that users trigger this kind of feature and then go into a huge panic because all their documents/windows have vanished. That’s why the emphasis needs to be in showing the user how to get it back.

My feeling would then be to bring pinboard to front and have some kind of transparent banner (in the same area, as Druck indicated) or something stating “click here to restore windows”. Again, it needs to be super-clear, and I worry that an icon on the iconbar (alongside 15-20+ others) might not stand out clearly enough.

My experience is that users trigger this kind of feature and then go into a huge panic because all their documents/windows have vanished. That’s why the emphasis needs to be in showing the user how to get it back.

I would want to insist that pressing Escape restored the default state, regardless of whatever other steps were available!

That’s what Escape is for   -   “Get me out of this mess!”

What about just holding the pointer a bit longer down at the bottom of the screen – for the pin board to surface.

Sibelius might have fun :-)

There’s also PBFront, by John Duffell here. His webpage seems to be missing, but the zipfile is still available from there. That works by holding Alt-UpArrow to bring the pinbaord to the front whilst the key is held. Supplied with source as well.

Immediate comment would be Print scrn has very specific functions in RISC OS (ie. printing from most applications), but more seriously, it relies on knowing a keypress combination, which is far from intuitive.

This is a potential Pinboard2 feature, and you haven’t got a Help feature built in?
Not a little blue italic script “i” icon in a corner that gives you a list of all the useful features that you otherwise have to guess?

If you read what I said carefully, I said holding the mouse at the top

Gee, how intuitive. So, I happen to leave the pointer at the top of screen a little too long and all the windows disappear…
And how near the top? Exactly? Sort of near? Almost all the way to moving the next screen up, but not quite?
Yeah, that will work really well for all the users of MoreDesk and Workspace and…

I don’t know these “desktop extension utilities”

Well, you mentioned Steve Reville and MoreDesk but then there’s also Druck with Workspace and various others.

But you’ve never used any of them, and they aren’t in the OS¹. That links nicely to Charlotte’s comments about things that people have written that ought to be in the OS

¹ There’s an underlying suggestion that since it’s 3rd party it doesn’t matter

At the moment, pinboard 2 isn’t doing anything with “to front” because it is a feature we have on our “todo” list but had left until near the end because of the design/interface element.

Although I dismissed a keypress above, I certainly don’t mind a keypress being part of the equation, just not the only way. And yes, at least part of the solution is probably to make some of this configurable.

Steve – your post came across rather negatively – I was trying to enter into a civil discussion of a potential feature that is actually planned for the OS. You can/could be really helpful with this, but the sarcasm really offends.

I am well aware that I don’t have all the answers on this feature, which is why I was opening it for discussion in the first place.

It is also a planned feature for Pinboard 2.0, but one we’re still thinking about regarding UI

Does it really need to be an integral part of Pinboard 2.0? Pinboard 2.0 implements Message_ToggleBackdrop just like the current Pinboard so ToggleBD already works with it. Sticky notes even remain visible, hadn’t noticed that before, nice.

If the Wimp gained support for Message_ScreenEdgeNotification (as in the other branch) then raising the backdrop by holding the mouse at a screen edge would be easy to add. I may still have some prototype code for this message somewhere.

However screen edges, as Steve P rightly points out, can conflict with other utilities that do likewise. VirtuDesk is one (which I use a lot), certain toolbar applications also use screen edges to come to the front.

Apart from clicking its iconbar icon ToggleBD also supports a hotkey combination to toggle the backdrop’s position. The hotkey combination is made up from modifier keys (alt, ctrl, shift and logo) To avoid them being grabbed by another application.

So it looks to me that ToggleBD already offers all that is needed apart, maybe, from a notification on how to get one’s windows back which would be easy to add.

There’s also PBFront, by John Duffell

The problem with PBFront is that it relies on the backdrop’s window handle being stored at specific location in the Pinboard’s workspace. If this is changed, and it may have with Pinboard 2.0, then PBFront will stop working.

Yes, it says this in the !Help file, but I was answering what I understood was Charlotte’s original request for a (third party) app that worked now with the current pinboard.

Last I tryed, last week, Workspace is not cooperating with RISC OS 5.28. Buggers up the window arrangements something fearce instead of switching workspaces. It works with older ROMs without any trouble at all.

Nothing to do with 5.28, it’s your CMOS settings, you have to allow windows off screen to the right and bottom from !Configure.

Yeah, that will work really well for all the users of MoreDesk and Workspace and…

…Launcher, and…

Although I dismissed a keypress above, I certainly don’t mind a keypress being part of the equation, just not the only way. And yes, at least part of the solution is probably to make some of this configurable.

As Fred says, why not just leave it to the existing utilities like ToggleBD? That way, users can do what they like, and the way is open for third-parties to implement whatever odd ideas take their fancy.

Steve – your post came across rather negatively – I was trying to enter into a civil discussion of a potential feature that is actually planned for the OS. You can/could be really helpful with this, but the sarcasm really offends.

Rough day, sorry.
It would be the middle bit you’re stung by I presume. OK, I will attempt to dissect a little:

I said “how near the top? Exactly? Sort of near? Almost all the way to moving the next screen up, but not quite?”

Position sensitivity is something 3rd party utilities have used a lot, if this is in the OS (and it ought to be) then it needs to behave in a manner that’s consistent with what other similar utilities have done and not clash with the trigger of other utilities that have a different functionality.

That was why I said “But you’ve never used any of them,” in response to your comment of “I don’t know these “desktop extension utilities” but my guess is that they move smoothly from screen to screen?"

Just my view, but if someone is looking at providing a feature in the OS I would expect them to look at the behaviour of other GUI enhancement utilities to see how they look and feel, as well as checking others that have a different function that might have a clashing trigger.
There’s a fair few, so a clash might still happen.
Fred also mentions Virtudesk as another desktop extender/enhancer using screen edge functionality, if we keep going we could make quite a list

I don’t think screen edge proximity is appropriate to this feature, I do think a keypress is appropriate and the ideal would be Alt-Print Screen or maybe Alt-Esc.

Fred mentions ToggleBD (and Steve Fryatt seconds that setup), which does the job but has the downside of being a 3rd party add-on, and we’re talking about OS functionality here.

Spinning a thought off that, Fred mentions the use of the logo modifier key, and Windows uses the logo key+D for desktop reveal toggling.
That’s somewhere on the intuitive scale and wouldn’t shouldn’t surprise any Windows user.

Just to add – when I’m writing or programming, I push the pointer to the top of the screen so it is our of the way (bottom edge already taken by a function).

Please do not make any more of the screen edge sensitive without a way to turn it off. Given the number of times a user is likely to want to get to the pinboard (me – rarely on RISC OS, a little more on XP because the apps menu is more complicated than it needs to be), I don’t see why a hotkey isn’t preferred. Logo + D sounds good to me…

I view things that have to happen automatically (iconbar to front) not so much as useful additions but rather workarounds for deficiencies in the original design.

The problem with the “why not leave it to 3rd party apps?” approach is that getting a clear view of the backdrop is fairly basic functionality that really shouldn’t require post-installation prodding around. It was already a UI weak-spot in the Acorn era, and in the Pi era (with far more memory and far bigger screens) it can rapidly become infuriating. Given that Pinboard is undergoing a revamp, now is the obvious time to add it.

Furthermore, as others have already mentioned, it’s the kind of thing that’s likely to clash with other UI modifications. If the way of activating it becomes “official”, then other app developers will know to stay out of its way.

Spinning a thought off that, Fred mentions the use of the logo modifier key, and Windows uses the logo key+D for desktop reveal toggling.
That’s somewhere on the intuitive scale and wouldn’t shouldn’t surprise any Windows user.

It works nicely in Linux Mint too. Thanks for that steer.