PRM font bounty

Topic says it all. How much for the bumped up licence, and a bounty to contribute…

If the topic says it all, then I’m obviously thick.

Are we wanting a specific existing font for which a licence needs to be purchased? If so, why?

There was a previous discussion on this.

The PRMs use a specific font (or more than one? I forgot) which have a license that does not allow unrestricted distribution in electronic form. This means that ROOL cannot easily make the PRM PDFs downloadable free of charge, and especially it does not allow redistribution by everyone else.

So there are two options: buy a bigger/better license for the font(s), or change the font(s) to one with a better/cheaper license. The latter is a lot of work, while the former may just need a few hundred UKPs thrown at it. I think competent workforce is in shorter amount than money in RISC OS world.

Are we wanting a specific existing font for which a licence needs to be purchased? If so, why?

Because the amount of work required to reformat the documents into a different font and keep the layout working correctly was described as being a significant barrier to doing it. The new font might be free, but people’s time isn’t (when they could be writing or updating content instead).

To be honest, the ballpark prices being quoted were not unreasonable for a small bounty. If that saves people’s time, then let’s contribute.

There was a previous discussion on this.

Ah. I’m not thick, then, just missed the previous discussion. Or forgot it.

Because the amount of work required to reformat the documents into a different font and keep the layout working correctly was described as being a significant barrier to doing it.

That makes some sense.

The new font might be free, but people’s time isn’t (when they could be writing or updating content instead).

Someone might feel able to to fix the font and layout, but not really able to do anything helpful with content – but if that someone was me, it would depend what software the documents are in whether it’s feasible.

To be honest, the ballpark prices being quoted were not unreasonable for a small bounty. If that saves people’s time, then let’s contribute.

Like how much? If really not unreasonable, then yes, agreed.

keep the layout working correctly was described as being a significant barrier to doing it.

As this was being discussed with… Steve? I forget. Anyway, I did wonder “didn’t they use document styles?”.

Like how much? If really not unreasonable, then yes, agreed.

But, yes, this is the salient point.

PDFs can contain downloadable fonts, so pick the closet match from a free font, and then substitute the exact metrics from the PRM ones to preserve the layout- or am I missing something?

There was a previous discussion on this.

There’s an exciting opportunity to blow the thick layer of dust off the 1992 PRMs (announced just now at the Wakefield Show, one of 3 new bounties to appear shortly). It’s a daunting task, at over 4000 pages!

The origin of some of the font fascination may come from a question about the availability of the User Guide in which, by means of an example, the fonts were mentioned. While ROOL holds a licence that covers all of our uses, sadly we were made aware of at least 3 instances where the PDFs, or drafts of them, were taken and in effect republished or resold contrary to the terms of use.

For personal use, please help yourself to all the beautiful books and enjoy them – today we made available the BASIC Reference Manual as well. If you’re wanting to republish in a distribution or sell one of the titles with a computer please get in touch and we’ll work out a bulk price to ensure they’re legitimate copies.

I think the issue of whether the publication can be redistributed by third parties (it can’t) is a side issue. The important thing is that these documents (RISC OS 5 User Guide and RISC OS PRMs) should be freely downloadable from this website by anyone who wants a copy. I spoke to a new user of RISC OS 5 only this week, he was enjoying his first experience of RISC OS 5 but asked where he could download a guide to using it. He was somewhat incredulous that the only way to find out how to use the OS was by buying a dead tree! If ROOL can put a specific price on the licence necessary to achieve this, then so long as it is, as stated, “a few hundred pounds” then I think a bounty would make that total fairly quickly.

I did wonder “didn’t they use document styles?”.

They only take you so far. Line wrapping, widows, orphans, page breaks, image positioning and wrapping (including references like “see figure X on opposite page” and so on). You can get a long way with styles and the like, but a book that’s retailing for the price of the User Guide (or even PRMs!) needs to look like someone cared when they laid it out.

And yes, if a bounty were set up, I’d contribute.

And yes, if a bounty were set up, I’d contribute.

Even I would, impecunious pensioner though I am.

Why not produce a PDF with all the content but perhaps a sub-optimal line-wrapping, plain old Helvetica font, oprhans and widows in high numbers, strange page breaks…and the printed issue will have the highest possible quality.

Once you think about further output formats – you want the PRMs also in StrongHelp format. And as AsciiDoc or DocBook. Because you can produce PDF and HTML and ePub and whatever other format from it. A font with a strange license won’t be your real problem.

There once was a project “PRMinXML” – whatever happened to that? I think Gerph was involved. The ROL PRM content published on the Web is certainly not pretty. But it is still useful, because I can google through it!

There once was a project “PRMinXML” – whatever happened to that?

Careful with those heretical views. I’ve suggested storing documentation in a neutral (perhaps XML-based) format a few times, and have always been told that it’s not necessary (although, to be fair, usually by those not doing the actual work).

Why not produce a PDF with all the content but perhaps a sub-optimal line-wrapping, plain old Helvetica font, oprhans and widows in high numbers, strange page breaks…and the printed issue will have the highest possible quality.

Because, as we see so many times on here, perfect is the enemy of good.

You can get a long way with styles and the like, but a book that’s retailing for the price of the User Guide (or even PRMs!) needs to look like someone cared when they laid it out.

I recall that argument from the previous discussion, however the point of the discussion was the distribution of an electronic format guide for free.

So, while the specific font and layout might be important for a dead tree copy the described use case is an entirely different animal in which page lengths are mutable (that’s your relatives etc. sorted)
As to references to facing pages etc, I learned not to do that on DTP in a previous century.

By all means pursue the funding of a new dead tree format, but don’t conflate the dead tree cost with the prospect of a freely distributable electronic copy with different formatting derived from a different font selection etc.

Any large document should be made with document styles. And references. I can’t image the PRMs could have been made without these or there would be far more errors in there.

What format are the original PRM files in?

What format are the original PRM files in?

That was my question a way back. I still don’t know, but knowing something about the history, my guess is Framemaker. I could try contacting my old colleague Mike Hardy who I believe was responsible for the original books. I’m not in touch with him, but I’m in touch with people who might well be.

The font issue might be a red herring as the PDFs seem to be in a generic font. It’s certainly not the same font as the paper version.

What format are the original PRM files in?

Framemaker: search for that on the forum, and you’ll find multiple posts naming it.

The font issue might be a red herring as the PDFs seem to be in a generic font. It’s certainly not the same font as the paper version.

It’s definitely in the “book” font here. Are you using the PDF viewer on RISC OS, perhaps?

The font issue might be a red herring

I suspect it is a real issue. But overcome by a modest sum of money and no extra volunteer work. Let us get the true cost, set a bounty, pay it and then discover whether that resolves it.

I wonder if the PDFs could be run through ‘Calibre’ – I see there is a option for DOS output – perhaps TechWriter could import it.

Which of the RO programs would best to edit them.

Nice to be able to use one that gives sound output.

It’s definitely in the “book” font here. Are you using the PDF viewer on RISC OS, perhaps?

Interesting! Preview on a Mac is showing it in what I think is Times New Roman. The other PDFs such as the Style Guide appear in the ‘book’ font (Novarese?).

Edit: Affinity Designer lists the following fonts in the PRM PDFs:

• Arial
• Symbol MT
• Times New Roman
• Zapf Dingbats

And the Style Guide:

• Bodoni
• Novarese Book
• Symbol MT
• Zapf Dingbats

Maybe you have a different copy of the PRMs. Mine are from the DDE 30a archive.

Fonts in the PDFs can be seen Properties,Fonts in Document Viewer on Ubuntu, or similarly in Acrobat Reader DC on Windows.

Rather more easily open the PDF in StrongED and search for FontName.

Can’t one just globally change fonts – to ones similar?

Perhaps not with RO software!