Need help to format HDD - and old RiscOS 3.7

I have a trusty RiscPC600 StrongARM which has a valued accounts application, and of course, accounts.
At one stage in the long past, I connected a second HDD drive, which was all of 840MB, but nevertheless, an upgrade.
I used the star commands *HForm to format it, and I copied all across to it, and somehow made it boot-able.
Of course, I have long ago lost the notes of the syntax and procedure I used.

Now, the disc is showing signs of trouble. Given a more modern power supply helped for a while, but there are times when it just won’t get going. When I get it started by giving it a little rotation jostle, and it runs up, then all still works. Time for a replacement – or something.

I can maybe replace the RiscOS (somehow), for a more modern one, but I am unsure the apps will still “just work”.

I have tried running the RiscOS that is available for the Raspberry Pi, and connecting the HDD via a IDE-to-USB adapter. There it all shows up, and I can even run some stuff like !SciCalc, but a bigger app like OvationPro fails because it apparently encounters a module that is not 32-bit compatible. I dare not invoke my accounts program. However, the entire drive content might be copied across, using the Raspberry Pi, if I were able to get something formatted to copy across to.

Instead, I wanted to do as before – format a HDD and copy all across. RiscOS 3.7 gets inefficient with drives larger than about 2GB, and even finding one less than 20GB is difficult. I have a MicroSD-to-IDE adapter that may provide a way. The Raspberry Pi version does not appear to have !HForm available.

I would be very grateful to rediscover the !HForm syntax command, and it’s options. Maybe I can take it all back to the RiscPC 600, and do it from there.
The commands to copy across, and how to make the new drive bootable would also be welcome.
Of course,I am open to any other upgrade suggestions.
Thanks if you can help.

You can get the drive visible on the Pi – do I would say the first thing you should do is create a directory on the SD card, “backup” or something, and then copy across everything from the old drive.

As for the software, things written in BASIC will generally work. Things written in C or assembler probably won’t ¹, but for a lot of things upgrades have been available for years (OvationPro, for example, check David Pillings’ website). For other things, there is something called Aemulor that makes a new machine pretend to be an old one.

https://www.davidpilling.com/ovationpro/opr.html

http://sendiri.co.uk/aemulor/

¹ The technical reason is that in the older machines, the “Program Counter”, the thing that tells the processor where to find the next instruction to deal with, could only handle 64 megabytes ² and the rest was various internal flags like “was the last calculation a negative number?”.
This obviously isn’t going to work if the machine has a gigabyte of memory, so the two bits were split apart. The address is in one place, the flags are elsewhere. But older software that fiddles with the address thinking it’s setting flags, it’ll go horribly wrong.

² The RiscPC is a special case that involved epic cheating, because the processor could work in either mode.

When I get it started by giving it a little rotation jostle

Bearings or heads sticking (Seagate, by any chance?). Neither is good. One day it’ll just not start at all, even with a bit of a shake. Best get the data off the drive while you can.

I have a MicroSD-to-IDE adapter that may provide a way.

Plain RISC OS 3.7 might not be able to handle it, there are known issues with ADFS. If you have a 3rd party IDE podule, chances are much better.

There are ADFS patches available to make it much more compatible with later IDE drives, but you need to load those patches from somewhere…back to floppy-boot?

I would be very grateful to rediscover the !HForm syntax command

HForm is a programme in $.Utilities.Caution on my panda, but you can download it individually – is the riscpc connected to a network to copy it over?

The technical reason is that in the older machines, the “Program Counter” […]

Not really any more, and this simplistic “32-bit or not” approach has caused confusion since around 2010.

Between a SA RiscPC and a modern Pi 4 there have been three ARM architecture changes which can stop software working, and software described as “Iyonix OK” in 2003 might work on a Pi 4, or it might not. We need to stop simplifying it down to a binary thing, because it hasn’t been for many years.

The technical details don’t matter. What does matter is making users aware that just because they have a piece of software described as “32-bit” for the Iyonix, it doesn’t mean that it will work flawlessly on a Pi 4.

I dare not invoke my accounts program.

Um. Which one? The major ones are either fine on all modern systems, or have an easy-to-upgrade-to modern replacement (or both).

If both the Risc PC and the Raspberry Pi are on your network, the easiest way to transfer all the data from the failing drive is via ShareFS.

But get your data copied without delay, as the old HDD is likely to fail very soon. Don’t procrastinate!

Don’t worry about SciCalc from the Risc PC not working – the Raspberry Pi has a newer version. In general you don’t want to use the old “standard” apps that come with every RISC OS machine, as they have all been updated to work on newer hardware.

Make sure you have a reliable storage medium on the RasPi. SD cards are designed to work with a small number of large files, changed relatively infrequently. My HardDisc4 is an SSD with a cheap USB<>SATA interface. SSDs are designed for that sort of work. An SD card may not last as long.

I strongly second Dave’s points about SD – skip that and invest in a SSD.

Firstly – my thanks to all of you. I know the good thing to do is to retire the RiscPC 600, and if/when I succeed in copying at least the accounts off it, I will.
I guess I should have been more prudent. It’s just that it has worked all these years, rock solid, only doing accounts. It still does! I have put it together again, and this time, it started up OK, without any “persuasion”.

Also, as it often is among RiscOS users, there are several paths possible. I would be OK with the Raspberry Pi version, if I could migrate my accounts program. I am looking into an upgrade.

@Rick Murray (539) – Thanks for the links, and yes, it is a Seagate. It may be working now, but I won’t be expecting to trust it much further.

@Steffen Huber (91) – Yes, if I can’t upgrade, I may be looking for those patches.

@Mike Freestone (2564) – Thank you. I found it on the Raspberry Pi version in a folder called “Caution” ! I had thought it would be found among the star commands after pressing F12, but I did not have any luck there. You can bet I will be attempting to format something. I have some SSDs. Since ADFS, there has been IDEFS, which I never got to. Now, on the Raspberry Pi, A USB SSD drive “just works”. I suppose I could just copy everything onto that, as a data backup, until I can make a whole system work again.
Re: Network – unfortunately, I never got the 10MB coaxial Ethernet to talk to my LAN. After Acorn, I became a Linux user.

Steve Fryatt (216) – Agreed that I have to leave RiscOS 3.7 and the StrongARM behind. The accounts program is !Prophet. There may be updated versions available, hopefully able to read the old files.

@Dave Higton (1515) I do have a Samsung EVO 860 500GB SSD, and a USB-SATA adapter. Most USB sticks show up on the Raspberry PI, but my 1TB USB external drive does not. Either way, the present Acorn drive is to be at least backed up. Keeping the old RiscPC running seems just no longer reasonable.

The accounts program is !Prophet. There may be updated versions available, hopefully able to read the old files.

It appears to still be actively maintained, with the ability to talk to HMRC if you need digital tax returns… I don’t know what, if any, upgrade options are available, but new copies are here and I’m sure that Elesar can advise.

PS. I do sometimes find this a little curious… Prophet has been shown off at recent shows (Wakefield 2021, London 2020), demonstrated at user groups, written about in publications like The WROCC (and very possibly Archive; my back issues are a long way away at present, so I can’t check), promoted in the usual places like csa.announce… What more do developers have to do in order to get the message across that they’re still supporting the RISC OS platform…?

@Graham Seale,

Elesar < www.elesar.co.uk > have upgraded Prophet accounts for sale.

Go to the url above, thence to software and there it is.

Regards.

What more do developers have to do in order to get the message across that they’re still supporting the RISC OS platform…?

That is a great question Steve! Worth maybe starting a topic in General (if there isn’t one already) to understand which channels people prefer to get updates from.

My feeling is that there are multiple “sections” in the user-base.Some obviously follow all the traditional channels. While another section in now more focused non-RISC OS direct channels, like twitter, youtube, google news and all the list of social/modern news systems. And finally there is a section that seems “fully-disconnected”, in other words they may simply not follow it anymore, unless they have a specific need, in which case it seems to be through a google search (maybe) and then on ROOL forum just to ask a question (which results in the continuous repeating message of “it’s still being supported”).

As always just my 0.5c

Not really any more, and this simplistic “32-bit or not”

Yes, it’s quite true that there have been complications and confusions along the way (unaligned loads, SWP, tighter rejection of duff instructions, etc), however when explaining why 26 bit era software doesn’t work on a 32 bit machine and wishing to keep it simple, it suffices.
You know quite well that I can geek out with gory details. But would the OP even want to read it?

We need to stop simplifying it down to a binary thing, because it hasn’t been for many years.

What we need is some way of validly identifying compatible software that doesn’t require a user to have a technical background to understand. I mean, what do you think makes more sense? “Works on a Pi3/Pi4” (with the implication that it’ll work on older ones too) or something like “ARMv7/ARMv8 compatible”?

As you like detail, I’ll happily pick this apart further for you and point out that the latter option not only requires knowing what family of processor is inside the machine, it’s bollocks anyway. Part of the reason I did all those modifications to Zap is because it failed on my Pi 2 (ARMv7). It did, however, work perfectly on my Beagle xM (also ARMv7). And as for ARMv8, well, 32 bit or 64 bit? It does both.

I get that we’re a little more techie around here, but maybe it’s time to step back and ask how we can best identify good modern software that doesn’t require the use of buzzwords and geek-lingo?

What does matter is making users aware

…of software that does work, not what doesn’t.

Make sure you have a reliable storage medium on the RasPi. SD cards are designed to work with a small number of large files,

More than that, make sure you have an adequate backup system. I use SD cards, and the one in the Pi3 tarted (via an adaptor) in my Pi1, then went into the Pi2. It’s years old and still going.
I pop it into the PC and do a full image every 1-3 months (depending on how much I feel had changed since last time), and every Sunday evening is DiscKnight scan time. Plus after power cuts or crashes that require a hardware kick.

I also have a little USB key that is plugged in, and source codes and stuff I want to keep is duped onto that.

I’m not saying an SSD is a bad idea, it isn’t.. Quite the opposite. But copying data from a harddisc onto SD or a small Filecore format USB key is something you can do now. Plus, it isn’t written anywhere that you can only have one copy of stuff. ;-)

and yes, it is a Seagate<

<licks finger, holds it in the air>

What more do developers have to do in order to get the message across that they’re still supporting the RISC OS platform…?

OP sounds like he’s coming in from the cold. Let’s ease him in to the shiny new world, huh?

So – great news. It looks like some of the programs wanted are still actively being supported, and there are options and opportunities.
And while the RiscPC is working (for now!), just think of all the potential power savings. This could be important with the, uh, current world situation.

I have no idea whether my stuff works on a Pi 4. I am guessing that it does, otherwise I’d have had an earful by now.

But copying data from a harddisc onto SD or a small Filecore format USB key is something you can do now.

Indeed, that’d be a good start! Or as RISC OS-created ZIPs/Archives on a boggo USB key; you can at least then dump then on your other non-RISC OS systems.

Getting a bit cool in here now, best turn on that RISC PC… [I used to have a large valve oscilloscope in my youth that was quite a good space heater.]

My feeling is that there are multiple “sections” in the user-base.Some obviously follow all the traditional channels. While another section in now more focused non-RISC OS direct channels, like twitter, youtube, google news and all the list of social/modern news systems. And finally there is a section that seems “fully-disconnected”, in other words they may simply not follow it anymore, unless they have a specific need, in which case it seems to be through a google search (maybe) and then on ROOL forum just to ask a question (which results in the continuous repeating message of “it’s still being supported”).

The average RISC OS user I speak to day in, day out at work is a million miles away from the kind of RISC OS user found on here (and from how many forum users appear to think RISC OS users are)! Most users I speak to simply switch their Acorn machine on (RiscPC, A7000, A5000, A3000, sometimes even an A310 or BBC B!), use it for whatever specific task they want, sometimes check their email on it, and then go about the rest of their lives. They don’t read newsgroups, web forums or magazines, they don’t go to Shows (often they don’t even know Shows are still a thing). At least one customer still picks up email once a week at the local library! They often are running RISC OS 3.x not RISC OS 4.×. Frequently they think they’re the last person on Earth still using RISC OS and are surprised that CJE (or other people) still support them, let alone that there’s people using modern versions on modern hardware! They’ve probably never upgraded any software from the version they originally installed. When their beloved Acorn system dies, or shows signs of dying, that’s when they are forced to run head-first into the ‘brave new world’ of RISC OS 5, or more often they buy a second hand system just like the one they’re used to (often learning what’s perceived to be a “new system” when you’re old is daunting, or else modern systems can’t run the particular hardware/software they need), or occasionally they jump ship and just use their PC for everything.

The average RISC OS user I speak to day in, day out at work is a million miles away from the kind of RISC OS user found on here (and from how many forum users appear to think RISC OS users are)!

Yup, as I mentioned, I have a strong feeling that there are many like this (if not the majority).

So, I guess the answer is:

• Keep advertising when one can (on the usual channels)
• Ensure that shops like CJE (and sites like RISCOSitory etc.) are well informed on what is being supported by the community or other vendors
• Keep going with twitter, facebook etc…
• Keep going with club meetings and shows
• Keep going with Archive, Drag’N’Drop etc.
• Understand that RISC OS is not a way of life for most people. It’s just a software, and if a user is not following all the channels and trends, that is not an issue :)

I don’t know what, if any, upgrade options are available, but new copies are here and I’m sure that Elesar can advise.

Elesar offers a 25% discount if you own a version prior to 3.93.

I would recommend first taking a whole-disc backup – and storing that, not using it at all.
Then make a second whole disc backup, which you could do from the first one. The more times you read the old disc, the more chance that it will fail permanently.

The first backup could quite well be to an SD card. Make sure you dusmount it before removing it though – some cards still require this step to avoid corruption.

A third backup might be a wise step too.

The second backup should be to a hard disc or SSD in an adapter. This one you will use to test things and make the changes needed to get your software working again. Those changes will include getting Aemulor and updates to any software that has updates available. !Store from R-Comp is a good starting point for this, as it contains a lot of free software as well as commercial offerings.

While making these changes – MAKE BACKUPS. Again, these could be to SD cards.

There is no such thing as too much backup.

And BE B****Y CAREFUL when using HForm. I am now somewhat paranoid about backup after accidentally formatting my main SSD while trying to format a backup disc. I lost about 3 months of changes, and my entire email address book among other things. I’m still finding gaps in things I want on a seasonal basis.

(I submitted an alteration to HForm that gives a final warning in user-understandable terms that you are about to format either the boot disc or the one containing HForm. I think it will appear in a future version. HForm’s method of describing discs might be technically precise, but it isn’t easy to translate to the drives you might recognise. FAT32Form has the same issues.)

I’ll second that, once HFORM has done it’s thing there is no way to recover the filing system, all the information DiscKnight needs has been overwritten.

Frustratingly all your file data will still be on the disc, but you would have to know what it looks like in binary, and search for every part with a sector editor. Which would probably put you in an early grave.

The best method is to copy HForm to RAMdisc, disconnect absolutely everything else, insert only the device you want to format, and then run HForm.

There is (was?) some confusion over SDFS and SCSI – which one is and isn’t ‘S’?

Don’t risk it, remove anything that could get accidentally trashed.