Keyboard shortcuts

I’m in the process of trying out various thing to see if I can get this side of RO (5.21)to work for me with the things I use and need on the other side… ;-)

Having scanned through the Forum and found a few bits n’ bobs on this subject… But nothing of any particular use.

RO 6.21 has a lot of Keyboard shortcuts, particularly filer ones, and I find that on this side very few indeed.

While I’m at it what on earth is Ctrl-K about. (I suppose it’s meant to be Kill) (So violent).

Anyway, seriously… How do I go about getting some keyboard shortcuts here?

I have a vague recollection, back before RO 6.nn I was using a third party app that gave a whole load of keyboard shortcuts, unfortunately it was a long time ago and I can’t even remember enough about it to do a Google… :-)

Can anyone give me a prompt?

Thanks
Dave

https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/Desktop%20interaction%20quick%20reference

or

http://www.riscos.com/support/users/userguide6/guide/chap07.htm
(at the end of the page)

I believe CTRL Ks’s days are numbered. Hallelujah!

Okay the first URL is useful, thanks.

Why don’t the RO 5.21 Filer menus show the shortcuts… It shows Ctrl-K and a couple of others, but not many others like Ctrl-R for Rename.

I need those shortcuts listed in the Menu, as on my side Shift-F3 is Rename. Etc…

As for the second URL… A bit confused really, as I’ve been using all the RO Select versions since they first arrived, and RO 6.20 since 2007.

Unless of course you thought in my intro… “I’m in the process of trying out various thing to see if I can get this side of RO (5.21)to work for me with the things I use and need on the other side… ;-)” Meant something else other than a different RO version. ;-)

Dave

As for the second URL… A bit confused really, as I’ve been using all the RO Select versions since they first arrived, and RO 6.20 since 2007.

and most people haven’t and would therefore not have a clue what keys did what.

Unless of course you thought in my intro… “
… Meant something else other than a different RO version. ;-)

Or that Raik was putting the whole thing in context. Rather helpful really.

Keyboard/mouse ergonomics is an endlessly interesting subject for the intensive user and no OS can hope to satisfy everyone! So third-party utilities come to the rescue and, for what it’s worth, here are my choices for use with RISC OS 5.

For Filer keyboard shortcuts, I use Martin Avison’s QuickFiler.

To provide copy/cut/paste functionality in writable icons I use Thomas Leonard/Steve Fryatt’s IcnClipBrd. Also for highlight/clear of writable icons Martyn/Christopher Fox’s module IClear.

Mouse navigation aids can be provided by creative use of Martin Würthner’s AppDock, and multiple instances of David Thomas’s Toolbar. The disadvantages are (1) needing a bit of personalised set-up work and (2) increasing boot time.

If you still use Shift-Dclick to open an application directory but would like to change to Dclick-hold, note that Fred Graute’s DoubleTake works with RISC OS 3,4,6 but is already incorporated in RISC OS 5.

For even more possibilites, you could explore Paul Reuvers’ HID.

I also use Olly Betts’ module so that command line inputs are buffered for easy retrieval (like with a Windows or Linux console, though less editable) LineEditor.

In this screen shot you can see:
(1) AppDock’s left dock being used for buttons: Red for Apps, Fonts, etc. and Black for data topics. The red A has been clicked to show the Apps directory, the black A has been clicked to show some obeyfiles amongst which Addresses opens directories and runs an app.
(2) AppDock’s top buttons being used for QFiler’s shortcuts for the Filer while Filer has the input focus (thanks to QFiler). Other apps have their own sets of buttons here.
(3) QFiler’s keyboard shortcuts added to the Filer’s menus on the RAMdisc display.
(4) 14 instances of Toolbar along the top for launching apps in various categories, two of which are shown dropped down.

Quite a lot of set-up, you may think, but it’s grown over time and does add hugely to day-to-day efficiency.

Keyboard/mouse ergonomics is an endlessly interesting subject for the intensive user and no OS can hope to satisfy everyone! So third-party utilities come to the rescue and, for what it’s worth, here are my choices for use with RISC OS 5.

Indeed. I suppose the question is should we add the functionality to the base OS?

Also for highlight/clear of writable icons Martyn/Christopher Fox’s module IClear.

Isn’t that covered by Ctl-U in the writable icon, and present in 4.x¹ and 5?

I also use Olly Betts’ module so that command line inputs are buffered for easy retrieval (like with a Windows or Linux console, though less editable) LineEditor.

The capability seems to vary with the editor generating the task window, Edit is limited StrongED shows more flexibility.

¹ “RO6” still a puzzle to me. Labelling something 6 that was functionally the same as 4.3x is a bit silly. Much like MS labelled windows 9 as windows 10

“RO6” still a puzzle to me. Labelling something 6 that was functionally the same as 4.3x is a bit silly.

Perhaps to trick stupid people into thinking it was “better” than RISC OS 5 (since later version numbers are usually later versions¹).
For my part, I utterly disregard the existence of RO6. It could break so many simple checks – like RMEnsure looks for “earlier than this” when you give it a module version to check, not a “earlier than this but also maybe something like this” that would be necessary to deal with the “hole” created.
Easier just to recognise RISC OS 4.xx as the ROLtd ones, and ignore 6.whatever.

Much like MS labelled windows 9 as windows 10

Because there is a not-insignificant amount of code that looks like this:

Runtime runtime = Runtime.getRuntime();
if (osName.startsWith("Windows 9"))
{
   /* Windows 95 or 98 */
   ...
}
else
{
   ...
}

Like here → https://github.com/jwagenleitner/docx4j/blob/master/src/main/java/org/docx4j/fonts/fop/fonts/autodetect/WindowsFontDirFinder.java

(stupidly long path!)

¹ Facepalm! Only ROLtd would have me write something like that that is not necessarily true.

“RO6” still a puzzle to me. Labelling something 6 that was functionally the same as 4.3x is a bit silly.

“Perhaps to trick stupid people into thinking it was “better” than RISC OS 5…”

It’s a question of where are you coming from Rick, like the Zap versus other text editors argument.

Probably most RO 5 user think it’s the best, but on the other hand from my perspective as a long time RO 6.n user, and an occasional RO 5.n user I think the reverse is true.
RO 5 is okay, but presents itself to me like a piece of “Shedwork” while RO 6 presents itself to me as a professionally produced product.
Really.. In this OS cul-de-sac we inhabit, the whole thing, like the Zap versus… is a waste of words, both versions of the OS work, and in there own way satisfy their particular fans.
We need to forget about past feuding and think about tomorrow…

Back to Keyboard shortcuts…

Probably most RO 5 user think it’s the best, but on the other hand from my perspective as a long time RO 6.n user, and an occasional RO 5.n user I think the reverse is true.

I think RO5 is the only one with active development, the only one able run on modern ARM boards and that the development ought to include as many useful features as possible.

Really.. In this OS cul-de-sac we inhabit

Um. Ah. Er, no I will pass up the opportunity.

We need to forget about past feuding and think about tomorrow…

Back to Keyboard shortcuts…

Indeed. Hence the “Wish list” posting I made
In an entirely unscientific manner¹ I checked the shortcuts offered by QuickFiler and those available in default installs of RO5.21 with the list provided in the RO6 on line guide.

Those in QuickFiler seem to have a logical sequence and derivation, so elements of the RO5.21 default seem illogical and many of the RO6 definitions seem to be rather random.
My conclusion is that using the set as defined in QF and integrating it as a default in RO5 is the logical way to go.
RO6 (and RO4) users can load QuickFiler so that the shortcuts match what others are doing and then everyone will be using the same set.

Anyone disagreeing should of course say so, with a justification of why their alternate is more logical.

Dave will, I’m sure, be entirely logical and agree with me.

¹ This is a white lie as I looked at the offerings and considered the logic or lack of logic of each from the standpoint of the dispassionate observer who doesn’t regularly use the shortcuts. Since this makes my observations objective rather than subjective I have at least been partially scientific. There was also comparison of the merits of the specific keys with questions such as “shift-F3 or control-R to rename” put to the wife. Since, as we all know, our ladies are never wrong this confirmed my almost scientific theory. QuickFiler shortcuts it is.

RO 5 is okay, but presents itself to me like a piece of “Shedwork” while RO 6 presents itself to me as a professionally produced product.

As a constructive criticism you need to be more specific about which features don’t present right.
Obviously development can be done but people need a target before planning a change.
Know where you are and where you are going before setting off on a journey…

My conclusion is that using the set as defined in QF and integrating it as a default in RO5 is the logical way to go.
RO6 (and RO4) users can load QuickFiler so that the shortcuts match what others are doing and then everyone will be using the same set.

Talking to myself again:

Meanwhile we all have to load QuickFiler and thus have the same defined set. Change or two in this neck of the woods and there’s less to load.

Note that QuickFiler can also be used on RO5. This includes later versions which have some inbuilt keys, although there is some compromise as to which keys are active.

Note that QuickFiler can also be used on RO5

Yup, hence me saying “Meanwhile we all have to load QuickFiler and thus have the same defined set.” however if RO5 takes on those keys then QF is only required for the legacy systems.

When I was on RO 4.39 and earlier I did use QuickFiler, then when RO 6 came along with its own set I had to remove QF because of the clash.

So RO 6 users cannot use QF as the install errors out with:

Title : Error from QuickFiler v2.22 Installer
Task : Unknown task
Message : Sorry, install failed due to Token MT10 mismatch ‘Copy’ vs ‘Copy[ F3’. QuickFiler removed from !Boot.

Steve, I agree with your logic, that shortcuts should be the same across both RO forks, but might be a bit difficult considering the above.

“RO6” still a puzzle to me. Labelling something 6 that was functionally the same as 4.3x is a bit silly.
“Perhaps to trick stupid people into thinking it was “better” than RISC OS 5…”

It’s a question of where are you coming from Rick, like the Zap versus other text editors argument.

The first quote was not me, the second one was. And, for what it is worth, I stand by both quotes. ;-)

Look – Select 1 through Select 3 were versions 4.xx of RISC OS by ROLtd. The latter 4.36 was named Adjust. Then for some inexplicable (to me) reason, the RISC OS version number leapt ahead to RISC OS 6 which was, ba-dum “Select 4”. Looking at the Wiki page of changes (which reads like a press release), there are improvements – certainly – but were there not incremental improvements all the way along? Why was Select 5 not RISC OS 7, for instance. Or why was the RISC OS version changed but the Select branding just incremented one?

Probably most RO 5 user think it’s the best, but on the other hand from my perspective as a long time RO 6.n user, and an occasional RO 5.n user I think the reverse is true.

You are welcome to think that, and I might be tempted to agree with you if the ROLtd branch was being developed. I have not used that branch at all (I stopped with 3.70 prior to the 32 bit world), but I have heard numerous people say good things about it.

RO 5 is okay, but presents itself to me like a piece of “Shedwork”

There are numerous deficiencies, certainly (Steve won’t need to ask me for criticism, as I’d just point him to Justin Fletcher’s many pages of descriptions). There was a time when people were able to dig in to the core of RISC OS and make some big modifications to aid debugging, stability, system service provision, and so on.

Though, as Steve has suggested – rather than just calling it “shedwork”, could you be more specific as to what you would like to see in RISC OS 5? The forum has a “wish list” section, maybe it ought to be exercised a little? ;-)

while RO 6 presents itself to me as a professionally produced product.

A bit like Aldus PageMaker then, eh?

I’m afraid we are going to have to differ on our opinions as to what makes a “better” product. One that is effectively dead and doesn’t even work except on obsolete hardware (or emulation of obsolete hardware)…that’s not really my definition of “better”. RISC OS 5 has a mountain of catching up to do before it can look and feel like ROLtd’s versions, that I won’t deny, though I will point out that it does work on modern ARM systems and it is currently being maintained. I can buy a Pi2 and install RISC OS 5 on it. That, in my book, makes it better, if not the de facto “winner”. Come back and prod me when I can pick a different version of RISC OS…

Really.. In this OS cul-de-sac we inhabit,

It’s a quiet place, the neighbours know each other, and the wheelie bins aren’t tagged by rival gangs. Cul-de-sacs have their benefits.

is a waste of words, both versions of the OS work, and in there own way satisfy their particular fans.
We need to forget about past feuding and think about tomorrow…

Oh, I agree. I really think the best way forward would be to open up the source code to ROLtd’s branch and merge it into this version to present a unified “good” version of RISC OS that will run on older machines, emulators, and newer machines. In this way, everybody can benefit……..but I have a feeling of déjà vu about this, so I’ll stop writing here

Message : Sorry, install failed due to Token MT10 mismatch ‘Copy’ vs ‘Copy[ F3’. QuickFiler removed from !Boot.

That’s interesting – the installer actually picks out one of the illogical key definitions in RO6

Steve, I agree with your logic, that shortcuts should be the same across both RO forks, but might be a bit difficult considering the above.

If you comment out the Copy definition line how many other key definitions clash? Could be a long sequence of commenting…
Or even, is there a way of turning off the RO6 definitions?

With regard to switching the RO 6 Key Defs off, I don’t know the answer to that one, though I’d be interested to know if it could be done… I must have a poke around in the RO 6 Configs.

Aside… How do you guys get a piece of stuff quoted in the answer you write? (The Line and the light grey)
D.

…
Just checked.
There’s an option in the “Boot.Configuration.Filer configuration.Interaction” to switch off keyboard shortcuts, but unfortunately it still doesn’t allow QF to install.
D.

Aside… How do you guys get a piece of stuff quoted in the answer you write? (The Line and the light grey)

Just put bq. (meaning “block quote”) before each part of the text to be quoted and a CR after the quotation.

See the Textile Quick Reference here.

Aside… How do you guys get a piece of stuff quoted in the answer you write? (The Line and the light grey)

The quote line is done in two ways: for a single line (as above), just start the line with bq.:

bq. Aside… How do you guys get a piece of stuff quoted in the answer you write? (The Line and the light grey)

To quote several lines together, use more standard HTML:

<blockquote><blockquote>Aside… How do you guys get a piece of stuff quoted in the answer you write?</blockquote>

And then a reply...

...which spans multiple lines.</blockquote>

which gives

Aside… How do you guys get a piece of stuff quoted in the answer you write?

And then a reply…

…which spans multiple lines.

For quoting monospaced text and/or code, use more HTML:

<pre>This is a snippet of
code
split over
several lines</ pre>

for example, which – without the space between the trailing “/” and “pre” that seems to be needed to fool textile – gives

This is a snippet of
code
split over
several lines

Thanks, Steve, for much more comprehensive answer!

Worth reminding folks that if they need to fiddle with or practise using Textile markup away from the main threads, the forum provides a topic called Tests for test posts (at the bottom of the forum’s index page). Not exactly a personal sandbox, but a convenient play area, and possibly a source of information from reading others’ tests.

Aside… How do you guys get a piece of stuff quoted in the answer you write?

Thanks for the replies folks, appreciated.
I guess I now understand the basics as the above quote seems to be okay.

There’s an option in the “Boot.Configuration.Filer configuration.Interaction” to switch off keyboard shortcuts, but unfortunately it still doesn’t allow QF to install.

Returning to the idea (been busy on other things).

When you load QuickFiler it checks the Messages text and warns if there is some clash it probably tells you that for each applicable message. Just because you aren’t displaying the text doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
I can generate the same thing by adding a shortcut that doesn’t normally exist to a StandAlone version of Filer¹ (with a corresponding Messages entry) and loading that and then trying to start QuickFiler.
It isn’t an issue, it’s us trying to abuse QuickFiler to make it over-write the existing setup (bad) rather than replacing the Filer with something that has the right shortcuts (good).

The issue being – what do people regard as the “right” shortcuts?

¹ It’s what some round here might call a “trivial” edit and rebuild. It took me a little while to follow what was going on so the edit wasn’t trivial for me. However, I now know how to twiddle certain bits of the Filer to provide some extra shortcuts.

When you load QuickFiler it checks the Messages text and warns if there is some clash it probably tells you that for each applicable message.

That is because QF needs to know the Filer version it is patching (the InstallQF process generates files accordingly) and if it patches another version at boot very nasty things can happen.

But if QF detects at boot that something has changed, it disables itself and creates a file which if sent to me I can normally amend the QF Messages file to suit that Filer version.

But if QF detects at boot that something has changed, it disables itself and creates a file which if sent to me I can normally amend the QF Messages file to suit that Filer version.

I hadn’t made my comments clear, I figured out what it does and more to the point why it does it.

Seeing what it did when I started introducing a different version of Filer with different Messages made that obvious.
Where I’m headed is incorporating extra shortcuts into Filer. I started with the simple stuff on Ctrl-whatever key combinations. Obviously that wouldn’t need QF to be modified since it wouldn’t be needed in that circumstance.

NB. Very nasty – that’s why I’m working on a RPCEmu instance initially.