BREXIT

The biggest problem is there’s spanners on both sides of the box.

For our international readers:
http://www.macmillandictionaryblog.com/open-dictionary-word-of-the-week-spanner

by their constant refusal (justified or not) to accept the outcome of the first referendum

Hold a proper, democratic, referendum then you’ll find a lot of us will be more willing to accept it.

Yes there is a lot of good in there like inclusivity and teaching of other cultures and beliefs but the straight jacketing of those who challange is not.

What’s that got to do with the EU? Songs from Pink Floyd and Toyah both predate the EU and both refer to the ritual brainwashing of children in the guise of education.
I don’t know about now, but when I was at school the smart kids were ridiculed relentlessly, the clowns got the cheers. Judging by some of the press’s obsession with so-called celebrities, that’s probably status quo. It’s a fault in the education system and in British society. There’s no reason a working class kid can’t be smart and make something better if herself, but there’s always going to be “respect your roots” and “you think you’re better than us” and many other things designed to try to ensure the elite go to Oxbridge and the blue shirts go down t’mine for twenty two hours per day. The only relation this line of argument has to Brexit is the number of people who weren’t educated in how to spot bullshit from a mile away…

In a related note:

Sometimes we all have to comprimise and move on

Why?

You know, in most western legal definitions, one is culpable if they assist somebody else in killing themselves. A person is supposed to be a “good Samaritan”, not the one that loads the gun and helps them place it to their head.
This is what people are asking us “Remainers” (scare quotes because not all of us got to vote) to do when they say things like “compromise and move on” or “well we might as well muddle through this” or similar phrases. In my opinion, it is a stupid, wrong, and damaging result with a stupid wrong and damaging response. It’s attempted suicide in slow motion with an entire country. Muddle through? Compromise? Seriously?

Fine. Here’s compromise for you. Let me be continue to be European, you can shove my UK passport where the sun never shines, and I’ll shut up about Brexit and never go back to that godforsaken country ever again. Deal?
[PS: rinse and repeat for all the rest of us]

In my opinion

And that is like us all we have opinions and who to say when we look back that history may just say thank goodness we helped break up the EU.

History has lots of points where there were great changes, Industrial revolution/Votes for all and perhaps we are in one of them now , be it good or bad.

As Richard said if we have a 2nd vote then someone will say lets have a 3rd because x or y and then will it be a 4th.

Also this thing about the last vote being undemocratic is like the football fan saying well we would have won if the ref wasn’t baised or gave the penalty. To the other side it’s we we won fair and square and you are just sore losers.

It was said further up we all put our own slant on things and some of us do it because it has a lasting impact of their lives.

As I said earlier on we are all argueing amongst friends and perhaps thats what those in real power want as it deflects the flames elsewhere.

One think I do know is that the French certainly know how to protest as it makes our lot look like a day out with the Darby and Joan club.

Hold a proper, democratic, referendum

Everyone eligible to vote (whether those rules need changing is not the point) had the opportunity. You talk about fiddling the voter eligibility but then want to adjust it to get the outcome you want. Come up with convincing arguments and this won’t be necessary. If Remain had done this the first time it might have been different. If Leave lied then Remain were just grossly incompetent. Hardly a ringing endorsement. Focusing on positive arguments rather then negative name calling and complaining would be a better approach and actually start to bring people together rather than continue to drive them apart. People don’t like being called names and being told they are stupid even if you think they are. They’ll just dig their heals in even more.

You talk about fiddling the voter eligibility but then want to adjust it to get the outcome you want.

Every British citizen of majority age – regardless of how it would turn out. Otherwise it’s not reasonable to call it the democratic will of anything.
And while talking about the democratic will of the people, Scotland and Northern Ireland voted in.

If Leave lied

There’s no “if”. We’re in this mess because they lied about many things, some of which were how simple and untroubled the negotiations would be.
https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/03/05/the-endless-brexit-lies-have-left-us-in-an-orwellian-nightma

were just grossly incompetent.

Yes, they were. Why the hell didn’t they stand up and argue down the obvious lies? Boris drove around in a bus with a fictitious figure on the side in massive writing and…….. That’s what people remember. Those on the side of Remain couldn’t argue their way out of a debate with infant school children, never mind adults. Utterly useless.

Focusing on positive arguments

I’ve had two and a half years of not knowing what my “status” will be. This, here in France, is my home, my life, my intended future. I am proud to be a European. Let that sink in. Let it sink in that for the entire time we (expats) have been ignored and/or used as pawns by a toxic government that hates foreigners. Hell, even that Weatherspoons bloke on his pub mat manifesto stated that guaranteeing citizens rights both ways was to be one of his three pledges. But the current government is beyond belief. The home office is… Let’s just say I pity a foreigner that has to deal with them at this point in time.

Anyway, sorry, I’m all out of positive arguments, rational arguments, and hope. I think anybody that still supports Brexit is crazy and delusional. Yes things need to change, yes the government needs to remember that they represent an entire country and not just bits of it. Yes the rich should pay their bloody tax obligations. But breaking said country isn’t going to fix anything. Britain, in the world, is not important. Trump can act like he does because America is important, and it’s a huge country with population and GDP roughly the same as the entire EU. Britain? Britain is what? What negotiating power does it bring to the table? What hope of negotiating power does it even imagine it has when its own ruling party are more than happy to trash negotiations if it doesn’t fit their arbitrary special tests? What negotiating power does it think it can possibly muster when it is extremely clear that the leader is that in name only?
What special deals do you imagine Britain will be able to create that will be both favourable to the UK (as opposed to other countries such as America) and will make up for the trade benefits of the EU that are about to be thrown away?

Brexit is not about politics. It hasn’t been for a long time.
It’s a religion. An ideology. And like religion, it is based on untruths, myths, and false promises.

we (expats) have been ignored and/or used as pawns

As much by the EU as by our government.

toxic government that hates foreigners

I’m sorry, but I just don’t agree with that statement.

Anyway, sorry, I’m all out of positive arguments

Well I apologise, but the only interaction I have with you is on this site and I haven’t seen any positive comments. I can only go by that. If I have missed them then again I apologise.

when its own ruling party are more than happy to trash negotiations

You mean all of the parties I assume. Labour are so desperate to get into power they will vote against the government regardless. The SNP admit as much in their voting tactics.

And like religion, it is based on untruths, myths, and false promises

Um. Haven’t you just defined most of what politics is about?

Sometimes we all have to comprimise and move on

Why?

Good question.
A number of decades ago a local wannabe politician told myself and other people gathered in a room as part of a protest group about a gravel company looking to purchase a local woodland¹ that “we need to compromise and we might get a little bit saved”.
A young bloke newly moved into the village said “Why?” “Can’t we just fight and get everything? It’s ancient, all the documents prove it.²”
The fight was on. The wood had no further damage, and it’s a community woodland now.

Compromise is for people who know that at least part of their argument is wrong, the “need to compromise” is another political lie.

And like religion, it is based on untruths, myths, and false promises

Um. Haven’t you just defined most of what politics is about?

There are sensible, well-intentioned, people in the political setup, but you tend not to notice them because of the others.

¹ Domesday listed, but dismissed as “new plantation” because the forestry commission had planted pines in various areas.
² A local GP had been documenting bits for years, including the Domesday ref. Prof. Shotton³ had studied the area geology and development from the ice-age
³Local born, Professor in Sheffield – which coincidently is my birth town

Compromise is for people who know that at least part of their argument is wrong, the “need to compromise” is another political lie

Sometimes you are right, but sometimes failure to compromise is people failing to acknowledge that part of their argument is wrong. And hence we have the situation where person X will always disagree with person Y because they are too pig headed to acknowledge that maybe someone else has a point and don’t want to be seen to lose face.

There are sensible, well-intentioned, people in the political setup, but you tend not to notice them because of the others

So much like religion then?

As Richard said if we have a 2nd vote then someone will say lets have a 3rd because x or y and then will it be a 4th.

I know, it’s a problem… Fortunately, someone much cleverer than me already covered this, back in May 2016:

“In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If [they] win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”¹²

Oh… hang on… that was if “remain” won 52-48, not if they lost. Sorry, my mistake.

¹ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

² https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Sometimes you are right

It doesn’t say “sometimes” on my T-shirt :)

sometimes failure to compromise is people failing to acknowledge that part of their argument is wrong.

OK, let’s look at the evidence which can broadly be summed up as the leave campaign lied and the remain was inept, ineffectual…
So, should we move forward on the basis of lies or badly explained truths?

So much like religion then?

I take your point, because there’s bigots in there too – politics that is.

Fortunately, someone much cleverer than me already covered this, back in May 2016:

Quite wrong Steve. Comment based on various items of evidence, pro for one side and the other just has a stream of cons
The prominence of a person in the news media has nothing to do with intelligence – as the person in the news proves quite magnificently.

When has he ever done anything that justifies the oxygen he’s using?

Sometimes you are right, but sometimes failure to compromise is people failing to acknowledge that part of their argument is wrong. And hence we have the situation where person X will always disagree with person Y because they are too pig headed to acknowledge that maybe someone else has a point and don’t want to be seen to lose face.

You might wish to consider that people under a certain age were born into part of the EU. We’ve always been European, and have always enjoyed the practical and cultural benefits of that. For as long as I can remember, I’ve had the right to jump on a boat, plane or train and go to another country – either just for fun, or to live, study or work indefinitely. As a student, I studied alongside many people who were at my institution under the ERASMUS programme. As a professional engineer, I’ve been privileged to work alongside many European colleagues who have contributed and taught me much. In my spare time, I’ve indulged in my hobbies alongside several European friends and, on occasion, had the opportunity to tour one of those hobbies in Europe thanks to a curious crossover between it and some EU academic research networks.

For many Brits in this position, taking away their European status – as will very likely be happening in the next few weeks or months – is akin to telling them that they can no longer be British. It is part of them; as much a part of their identity as their Britishness is. Their anger – along with their unwillingness to forgive, forget and move on – reflects that. Way back in 2016 there was talk of allowing those who were currently European to retain that status for life if they wished to do so; Brexiteers cried “foul”, because it would confer an “unfair advantage” on those who held it.

On a more practical level, I’ve seen the benefits that the EU has brought in terms of jobs. I’ve worked for a multinational company who was only in the UK because we were an English-speaking part of the EU; I’ve also worked for a small, private, UK company who benefited hugely because they could sell UK-designed and manufactured electronics to the other 27 countries in the EU as easily as they could to the native UK market. I currently work (for a few more days, at least) in a large industrial zone built over the sites of several former coal mines, where many of the companies have European links and much of the infrastructure was paid for by the EU Regional Development Fund. In fact, throughout my working life, I’ve benefited from being part of the EU. In my spare time, the modern, well-equipped city-centre community theatre where I help stage productions was made possible by EU funding.

Conversely, over the past two years I’ve seen first-hand the effect that the uncertainty about future trade arrangements has had on foreign exports (not just to the EU, but to anywhere outside of the UK). This has ultimately helped to give myself and my former colleagues the unwanted opportunity to experience first-hand the true state of the UK job market in pre-Brexit 2019. I’ve heard many first-hand tales of the abuse that Europeans (and others) now receive in the UK for “sounding foreign”. I’ve seen reports of the effect that Brexit will have on my old university, and the damage that the Government’s ill-thought-out new visa system will have on both it and the other Scottish institutions where their basic courses are one year longer than the three year stay to be granted to EU students post-Brexit. I’ve seen my professional body’s analysis of what leaving will do to the field that I work in (in the UK, at least; remaining EU countries will likely benefit). I’ve seen the effect that our departure is likely to have on funding for local community projects. And I’m seeing long-standing European friends and colleagues reluctantly deciding to leave the UK that they’ve called “home” for many years, because they no longer feel welcome.

So what have we gained? Well, there’s “sovereignty” – except that no-one that I’ve ever spoken to can back this up with anything which can’t be refuted after five minutes on the Government website. And we’ll be getting Blue Passports – except that those were always possible under EU rules, anyway.

You might wish to consider that people under a certain age……

Steve F, your post is interesting and helpful – and argues some good points. However it isn’t related to the point I was actually making!

Steve P and Steve F

If you read again my comment was purely in response to the statement about compromise – and I apologise if I wasn’t clear that I was talking in general terms about that. I will try and use the term ‘one’ rather than ‘you’ moving forward.

My actual point was, that always insisting one is right, never engaging to even find out if one is wrong, and never compromising
is unhelpful in moving things forward (anything! – not talking Brexit here).

Because sometimes people are 100% right, sometimes they are 100% wrong but most times it’s somewhere in the middle.

The failure of our politicians simply illustrates the point I was making. Very few, on either side of the house, will admit when the are wrong or more accurately when someone else is right.

I take your point, because there’s bigots in there too – politics that is.

I was trying to take the positive from what you said, that there are some good people but they get overshadowed by the vocal self serving ones but obviously you didn’t interpret it that way

My one and only contribution to this thread is to say to Steve F – well said, with lucidity and a lot of common sense.

Steve F, your post is interesting and helpful – and argues some good points. However it isn’t related to the point I was actually making!

Fair enough, although I read it back up the thread as a continuation of this post – which was directly accusing Rick of being negative here

which was directly accusing Rick of being negative

Again, my poor choice of using the word ‘you’ when I should have said ‘one’ as it wasn’t my intention to single Rick out for negativity in that post.

Steve F , has made some great points as they show the benefits of the EU for many and why many see themselves as European first.

The points also show potentially why the vote went the way it did because there are many in the country who do not benefit from the very many opportunities being part of the EU gives and those were exploited very well by the leave team.

There are always haves and have nots and one person benefit is anothers loss.

People also take the view that the EU is beign but prior to our entry in the 70’s France in particular were against the UK’s entry and the terms on which we joined contributed a lot to the sea change in many industries but in the long term it has bee a positive.

As to comprimise then you only have to look at the success of the Good Friday agreement/Post WW2 plans etc to see that its a better way sometimes and perhaps thats where this whole debate will be heading as the only way to bring people together is to seek a concensus rather than winner take all and thats where the political failure has been for the last 3 years.

My actual point was, that always insisting one is right, never engaging to even find out if one is wrong, and never compromising is unhelpful in moving things forward (anything! – not talking Brexit here).

I’m told that an irritating feature of the way I work is a refusal to rush things no matter how “important” some say they or the thing is. They are all convinced they are right, my first thought is “probably not” but I gather information and work on that. Info first, decision second or maybe third or fourth.

I was trying to take the positive from what you said, that there are some good people but they get overshadowed by the vocal self serving ones but obviously you didn’t interpret it that way

Sorry you seem to have misunderstood my comment. It was a reference to the blinkered and bigoted people in the religious world – just mentally step over to NI and check out the anti-otherness supported for decades by some people in clerical regalia, how many proper Christians did you see on the news? Politics/religion flip a coin.

On a lighter note, could anyone tell me whether Farage’s walkies go all the way to Dover and whether anyone has bought him a single for the ferry?

As my mother and I were watching Ana y Bruno, the petition topped five million.

toxic government that hates foreigners

I’m sorry, but I just don’t agree with that statement.

I guess you haven’t been paying much attention to the news then? That said, I get my news in English, French, and Spanish. And believe me, your country’s behaviour has not been missed on anybody.
I can’t be bothered giving links – so here’s a good one to get you started. There’s a lot more nastiness than “oh, we messed up Windrush”…
https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/news/blog/sajid-javid-cant-just-change-home-office-language-he-must-challenge-rotten-culture

You mean all of the parties I assume.

I mostly mean the Tories. Whether or not Labour are idiots (or being run by one) or the SNP want to scream and shout, the simple truth of the matter is that British politics isn’t a mess like American/French where the legislative part may be a different party to the leader part. No, in the UK, the party in charge must have the most representatives – and right now, with DUP participation, they just have enough to carry a vote.
Thus, if they were actually capable of agreeing on anything, the vote ought to be carried regardless of what the other parties thought. But May has a spectacular record for losing spectacularly – because it’s basically a civil war between rival factions of the Tories. That’s half the problem. They cannot and will not be capable of agreeing on anything, and it’s the far right members who tend to shout the most.

but sometimes failure to compromise is people failing to acknowledge that part of their argument is wrong.

Compromise, by definition, means that both parties don’t get exactly what they want but they do get something.
Compromise, in Brexit terms, appears to be an expectation of those who support remaining to simply give up hope and join in with the Brexit case. That’s not any form of compromise, it’s just a test for the morally inept.
You do recall, I hope, that in these recent years of craziness, the backstop and the crash out were to be last-ditch emergency parachute options, not the ones that are increasingly likely to happen? The right wing nutjobs (Rees-Mogg and his merry band of bastards) have shown little inclination to compromise on anything, wanting the hardest of hard Brexits (it is more profitable that way).

It is part of them; as much a part of their identity as their Britishness is

Well said. This is a very very big and important point. Thanks to the lies and the ensuing mess, rights that I have enjoyed for my entire life, plus a large part of my identity (moreso than “being British” nowadays) looks likely to be removed for… for what? I’ve yet to hear a cohesive argument that isn’t spouting the sort of rubbish that makes headlines in the Express.
I AM European. Understand that.

Somebody, I forget who, said that the EU have been against preserving rights. That is, of course, the British narrative. Which, like everything else, is pretty much Yet Another Lie. Europe wanted three things to be sorted out and ringfenced right at the beginning prior to any further negotiations. Citizens rights, the Irish border issue, and the final bill. They wanted this sorted and put aside before working on any other issues. It is your government that not only consistently failed to do that but also voted down the idea of giving European status and rights to those of us in the EU “because it would be unfair”. Yup, it would be unfair for me – a person who has spent >17 years in the EU to remain European, but I’m supposed to be totally okay with having all of this stripped off of me because “foreigners”?
Believe me when I say that my proper response to that point would likely get me banned from this forum. So simply imagine the rudest thing you can (in the language of your choice) and understand that you’re not even halfway to expressing my anger.

Why hasn’t the EU offered rights? They have asked each country to “be generous” but there is no overall guarantee of rights. That’s Britain’s fault. Because while the EU is attempting to make some sort of agreement, I doubt there is one single person that trusts the UK to be capable of actually agreeing to anything and to actually stick the whatever has been agreed to. You may find Boris’ idiotic comments like “go whistle” to be funny. It is, sadly, a rather more serious indication that the people running the show don’t seem to think it’s a big deal to renege on international agreements. This may also be why other countries aren’t trying to beat a path to your door to negotiate great deals. The current British leadership is xenophobic, arrogant, and highly untrustworthy.

However it isn’t related to the point I was actually making!

There are numerous points being made in this thread. It might be worth carefully reading that post again rather than dismissing it with “I was on about something else”. Brexit, and its effects, are complicated.

in the 70’s France in particular were against the UK’s entry

Of course. Because France understood that Britain saw itself as some sort of special, and not a team player. They were right.
The UK never adopted the Euro, was never part of Schengen, negotiated a bunch of infamous opt-outs (not enjoyed by other countries) for the bits they didn’t want to do, had a habit of blithely going their own way (shall we talk about imperial weights?), and is now the country looking to up and leave.
You might see France (De Gaulle, back then?) as obstructive. I see it more as prescience. The UK really only “did Europe from the sidelines” and didn’t want to get as involved as other countries.
It’s a shame. Because France and Germany, two countries that were in a debilitating war some eighty years ago, are now working together on making a better EU. But most of all, no more stupid wars.

is to seek a concensus rather than winner take all

I wonder if that’s even possible. The two choices (leave, stay) are direct opposites – that’s what my T-junction/crossroads analogy was about.

could anyone tell me whether Farage’s walkies

I really wouldn’t worry about that. I saw pictures. Farage had to resort to claiming that twenty million (where did that figure come from) were with him in spirit because he could only muster a seriously tiny number. Hell, when my school used to do our end-of-term walk, we’d have been three times what Farage managed to rouse into joining him on his comical protest.

Dover and whether anyone has bought him a single for the ferry?

Whoa – wait! He might have a French name (and German nationality wife/children) but what makes you think we want him on this side of the Channel?!? Go push him off Land’s End and tell him to head West until he finds the Land Of Trump…

I guess you haven’t been paying much attention to the news then

Yes I have thanks, and a blanket statement like ‘the government hates foreigners’ is exactly the kind of generalisation that got us into this mess.

I mostly mean the Tories

The other parties have done all they can to be as divisive as possible. You well know the government majority is slim and so do the other parties. They are exploiting that rather than working for the good of the people – whether that be a deal, no deal or another referendum.

Compromise, by definition

And as you well know from your later comment I wasn’t talking about ‘Brexit’ compromise.

It might be worth carefully reading that post again rather than dismissing it with “I was on about something else”

It might be worth carefully reading my post and you’ll see the previous sentence did acknowledge and praise the post. See below in case you missed it.

Steve F, your post is interesting and helpful – and argues some good points

oh, we messed up Windrush

Let’s just say that my brother-in-law is a bit nervous on that one.

with DUP participation, they just have enough to carry a vote.

Assuming members of the party don’t actually decide to vote against because of spite/contrariness/confusion¹/conscience²

Whoa – wait! He might have a French name (and German nationality wife/children) but what makes you think we want him on this side of the Channel?!?

I rather expected that comment. Make him “persona non grata” on UK and French soil. He can stay on the ferry.

Go push him off Land’s End and tell him to head West until he finds the Land Of Trump…

Now there’s a diplomatic incident in the making:
Lands End is almost exactly on the 50th parallel which crosses the Atlantic and makes landfall in Newfoundland and the Canadians probably don’t want him either.

¹ Yep, one got confused and voted the against something he’d been speaking for
² Look there’s a “broad church”, so they say, so it’s a possibility.

I really wouldn’t worry about that. I saw pictures.

He’s a grade 1 tit, we know that. Hellfire he probably knows it. The transporter bridge cock-up I referenced under “cons” is merely one small example.

France understood that Britain saw itself as some sort of special, and not a team player. They were right.

You mean that France thought that by having the Uk in the EEC would move the balance of power as the UK aligned more towards the US and any expansion may be more PAN Atlantic.

Part of the reason for entry being granted was perhaps also that Germany and France wanted a counter balance for their own reasons as well.

The EU has in the long term been good but it has it’s faults, just look at youth unemployment any many EU countries, like all institutions and sometimes the UK is , rightly, seen as a troublesome neighbour but the world is changing and the old order may not be the power in future.

I think we should stay and build a concensus to change things from the inside but I guess after years of bickering there was always going to be a parting of the ways.

Who knows once we are out then we may find like some seperated spouses we get on better :-)

HMG has emailed, rejecting the petition. However the fruit machine has thrown up a ‘free go’. At the moment the second referendum petition is behind the leave with no deal one. Equal opportunities, eh?

rejecting the petition.

Is that a surprise? We got one say to vote for “something” that was ill defined and everybody lied.

The PM, on the other hand, is going to get as many votes as necessary to get the answer she expects.

Honestly, the entire mess should be abandoned and parliament disbanded pending the results of an international investigation…

Ha ha – The Daily Heil is describing The Speaker’s insistence that their should not be a third try on voting for the same thing “sabotage”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6856575/How-government-plans-John-Bercows-vote-sabotage.html

What’s the word for thinking that it is okay to vote repeatedly until it passes? And to “agree to step down” as basic bribery to get the ERG onboard? What’s the word for that?

Edit: Be polite! 🙂