BREXIT

Politics- so that either Boris or Mog can become Prime Minister- fisticuffs at dawn to decide the winner. ‘We’ will obviously need a war with the latest ‘bad guy’ to deflect from their joint total incompetence. The EU may look on in total amazement but I doubt this as its obvious who are the total idiots in parliament.

How many MP’s does it take to make a decision.

So you are given 8 more options and still you vote against everyone.

You couldn’t make up this pxxx up in a brewery if you tried.

Yes it looks like there is a majority of MP’s in Parliament are incompetent- plus it’s time to dump the current Speaker- as has happened in previous times. All Representatives of the populace in Parliament are supposed to work for for common good of those who voted for them plus those who did not. In stead its turned into a screeching cat fight – fur is flying everywhere and no one is taking any responsibility for their actions.

Yup – yesterday parliament managed to vote down everything.

But, then, idiot May agreed Yet Another Shameless Bribe – that of ending her time as PM if they vote through her unwanted agreement. Boris saw this coming and compared himself to Moses with a newpaper editorial comparing Leave with taking the Jews out of Egypt, and Rees-Mogg who publicly endorsed May’s “deal” is now said to be aligning himself with the DUP (who are opposed).
Because May said she’d quit, so rather than gave even half a s**t about the future of an entire country, they’re only concerned about which one of them will get their grubby grasping incompetent mitts on power.

plus it’s time to dump the current Speaker

Keep him in. He seems to be one of the few people concerned about the fact that the same thing is being repeatedly brought up for vote.
Why don’t we try that with the referendum, just keep holding it until Remain wins? What, fair’s fair, right?
May’s first attempt recorded a historic loss. Any sensible competent PM would have realised that the deal is dead. It simply isn’t acceptable to try a variety of dirty tricks to garner support and keep trying to push it through. The Speaker is right. And it isn;t his fault the government is a mess – last night proved that.

are supposed to work for for common good of those who voted for them plus those who did not.

It’s been quite clear for most of this (hello ERG), that the politicians have been working for the good of themselves and only referring to “the people” when trying to score points with each other.

You couldn’t make up this pxxx up in a brewery if you tried.

I’ve seen banana republics and Italy with more competent and stable governments than this lot.
Perhaps the only way out is a general election after passing legislation to put a “none of the above” option on every ballot paper.

Perhaps the only way out is a general election after passing legislation to put a “none of the above” option on every ballot paper.

That option has always been present, in the form of a “spoiled paper”.
Records already exist of whether you voted or not so why not enforce the casting of a vote? (unless you have a valid reason for not being able to present yourself at the poll station / fill in a postal vote)

At least then the vote result is the declared “will of the people”

Just demolish the Houses of Parliament and transfer governance to Brussels, Berlin .. even Beirut couldn’t do a worse job than Westminster.

Just demolish the Houses of Parliament

Nope, tourist attraction, like buck house

Yup, it would be unfair for me – a person who has spent >17 years in the EU to remain European, but I’m supposed to be totally okay with having all of this stripped off of me because “foreigners”?

17 years? I suspect you mean 25 (wiki tells me it was created in 1993), because lots of people seem to forget that the UK is IN THE EU, and I believe you lived in the UK before you escaped to France. I’ve also been an EU citizen for 25 years, as I have lived in a member state (the UK) since it’s creation.

I’m somewhat annoyed … sorry ducking livid (as my predictive text would say) about having that removed from me. I’d happily give up my British citizenship mind you – it’s just an embarrassment.

The Speaker is right. And it isn;t his fault the government is a mess – last night proved that.

Well I’d say that it is collectively the whole of parliament that is a mess.

I see many are saying that a 2nd Ref or customs union is the way as they got the most positive votes even though not a majority and if you look at the figures they were not even the top for overall votes cast for the options. So they are a minority of and minority view.

However if we use the same basis that some have argued here then not voting for that option can be counted as a positive :-)

Either the DUP will cave or get a bribe, I mean incentive cash or otherwise, or the deal will end up having a bolt on i.e our future relationship will be xxxx in addition to the words already added.

You know that both main parties have been cynical at this and Labour have been edging bets for a GE as it suits them.

Which ever way it goes now those who are supposed to govern us have ensured that a lot of people will never trust or use their vote again and that is a shame.

The people who will most likely do that are those who are already disenfranchised and parliament will become an even more slanted representation of those who have money and power.

a lot of people will never trust or use their vote again and that is a shame

I wish I could believe that. If they had not voted in the first place we would not have had three wasted years.

If they had not voted in the first place we would not have had three wasted years.

My comment was one about anyone who voted rather than who voted a particular way.

But I agree I too wish we had not voted at all or voted the other way.

It was a vote that generated a lot of people to vote for the first time or vote again and that should be seen as a postive.

The issue now is the genie is out of the bottle as they say but if we are not careful the forces of extremisim, both left and right,will be flexing their muscles and that should not be allowed to happen.

So the dozy bint wants a fourth try at passing her turd through parliament (yet the people absolutely cannot be allowed to reconsider).

Here’s today’s local paper. You’re all a laughing stock.

The issue now is the genie is out of the bottle

In the story from the 1001 Nights the genie was persuaded to put himself back in the bottle. Perhaps a second referendum would do the trick for the Brexit Genie.

Meanwhile France seems to be heading to be even more in debit than Italy and to become the 4th highest debtor not to mention the ongoing gilets jaunes demonstrations.

Sometimes it is good to deflect attention elsewhere when the latest golden person is busy burning up all their promises.

The fact that we have a political crisis bigger than Suez is not down to the people who voted , either way, but down to those who should govern us and seem incapable of putting party and their own interests to one side.

The Tory party started this whole mess in what Cameron thought was a clever ruse to ensure the “Kippers” didn’t harm his chances of another period in office and then compounded it with an inept “Remain” campaign.

Meanwhile Labour seems more interested in an Election than anything else, whilst the SNP try to use it to engineer another Indy Ref for Scotland.

That is the real Fiasco, that whilst the country needs to focus on sorting out the many real issues that those at the margins of society face we have spent the last 3 years focusing on Brexit.

I suppose though in some ways they may mirror wider societies mirade of views on Brexit so perhaps we should not be to too hard on some of them?

not to mention the ongoing gilets jaunes demonstrations.

Nothing particularly new there. France elects presidents from an “elite” based upon lots of great promises. Like all politicians, many of those promises get forgotten along the way. Plus I think most people understand that change needs to happen, they just want change to happen to other people.
It really doesn’t help that the current man in top spot has a habit of shooting his mouth off, saying derisory things about the working class, and he appears to be totally disconnected from the lives of ordinary people. It’s cool if you’re rich. It’s okay if you’re encadrement (some of whom have quite cushy benefits), but if you’re a SMICard or sans emploi, then you’re a feckless lazy asshole who complains about everything, right?
I don’t agree with the yellow jackets methods (and a mean the real ones, not the twats smashing up Paris) but I understand why they’re angry. Actually I’m surprised nobody has called a general strike yet since the petrol (SP98) has jumped from ~1,48/l to ~1,56/l in one week. WTF? Isn’t it taxed enough? It’s not like this country has any sort of useful public transport infrastructure. Oh, wait, there’s a metro in Paris and the rest of the country doesn’t count. Sorry, forgot that whole ivory tower thing.
[sort of parallels to London, Westminster, and anything beyond the M25 being labelled as hic sunt dracones… (or maybe these days hic sunt unicornis)]

when the latest golden person is busy burning up all their promises.

Isn’t that basically every general election ever? One of the reasons I find it funny that brexiteers are so adamant that the referendum must be respected, because the government promised it would be. Manifestos are nothing but promises that are forgotten the minute the result is known…

Labour seems more interested in an Election than anything else

Yeah, they seem to think that people will flock to vote for them. Well, maybe the anti-Semites that aren’t quite right wing enough to support the conservatives. But how can their claims to support the EU carry any weight when they can’t depose of a leader every bit as useless as May? Corbyn is only calling for an election at every opportunity because he thinks he’ll win, but Labour won’t win while he’s still around. And given how messed up everything is, I can imagine the likes of UKIP (or whatever it is now) gaining a worrying number of seats.

whilst the SNP try to use it to engineer another Indy Ref for Scotland.

I don’t see why they shouldn’t. Things have changed dramatically since 2014 (or was it 2015?). Do you think the Scottish would have chosen to remain in the union if those “better together” pledges actually said “better together but in a year we’re going to tell the entire EU to F-off”?
They should hold another referendum, and to hell with what the English think about it. And if the result is for staying a part of the UK, then just keep holding them on a weekly basis until they get the result they want. After all, isn’t that what the PM is doing?

we have spent the last 3 years focusing on Brexit.

You seem to believe that those in Westminster give the slightest inkling of a damn about those on the margins of society. They don’t. Brexit has been a brilliant distraction, and of Brexit was cancelled or the country crashed out tomorrow, they’d debate it for another three years. If you want somebody to give any hint of concern about the little people, get a LibDem government in power. The Tories are only interested in what they can get out of it, and since Tony Blair, I’m not so sure one couldn’t say the same about Labour.

so perhaps we should not be to too hard on some of them?

Fire them all, start again. We mere citizens have skewed partisan views, don’t know all the facts, and the whole thing is really complicated. We elect these people on our behalf – making decisions is their job. A class council of infant school children could come up with something better than this utter shower of incompetence and greed. To hell with the lot of them, they’re not fit for purpose.

I got another email the other day. On Monday (April 1st, fitting), they’ll be debating the article 50 poll in commons. You know, the one they’ve already responded to rejecting it completely. There’s Britain’s interesting definition of “democracy” in action…

A lot of people are very angry about the whole debacle, and for many different reasons. What scares me the most is that trust, without which no society can function, has flown out of the window. I do not believe that all the politicians are venal incompetents, but it feels as if they are. But they are almost irrelevant. When experts and statistics are dismissed as totally biassed, when everyone is perceived as venal, we are approaching anarchy. Disinformation rules. Those who have to run a business, or care for the sick, are caught between the real world and the paranoid fantasists who dismiss their concerns. In the past it was accepted that many journalists and politicians were economical with the truth, and nobody thought it worth while, or possible, to discipline them; but the skies are dark with consequences coming home to roost.

While my rant is yet hot, I would like to add to it. There have been many ingenious systems for electing a government – google how the Doge of Venice was elected, for example. What we need is some serious scientific thinking on this subject. First off, technology means that politicians do not have to be physically present in the same chamber. Second, too little thought has been given to who monitors, trains and chastizes the politicians. One speaker is not enough. If the public is to get their money’s worth they need to be far better informed about the politicians who represent them. Certain public servants will need to sacrifice a good deal of their privacy in explaining what goes on their heads – what books have they read, for example. How much requires debate, but I see a necessity for a specialized, elected body whose responsibility it is to question politicians, courteously but thoroughly, on behalf of their electorates. Leaving it to microphone-toting botherers in the street wastes everybody’s time. Anybody should be able to put forward a question to an elected official, through an official channel, subject to appropriate rules and recasting to ensure intelligibility. There should be humiliating sanctions against those who do not cooperate transparently and honestly. Childish or rude behaviour should bring dismissal from office. More thought should be given to the provision of services that politicians need, and to the training required for their use. Ultimately it is impossible to set standards by rules and regulations and recourse to such implies that the correct ethos has not been established. The behaviour of politicians has an effect on the public, and they should be expected to set a good example. The first-past-the-post system is manifestly unfair; it only encourages parties, with poisonous consequences.

What scares me the most is that trust, without which no society can function

It should scare us all.

When people trust “misinformation” more than they do legitimate sources or fact based information then anything is possible.

Trumps “Fake News” mantra is resonating everywhere and with a minor victory in the Russia probe he can lend even more weight to that mantra.

Social media is great for a lot of things but it is the equivalent of the baying mob at hangings in a lot of cases and that does not bode well for social cohesion if it is not challanged or controlled.

I fear the dark forces of left and right are about to be unleashed on us and we will get a taste of the 70’s/80’s mob rule.

Then again on Monday our elected MP’s could play the biggest ever April Fool’s joke on us all and ….

The problem with people who trust fake news is that they have no common sense.
If you can’t trust legitimate sources, you can’t trust illegitimate sources either.

IHMO, the problem is not that they don’t trust legitimate sources, but that they trust the others.

Trump’ case is different: he doesn’t trust legitimate sources, but not (always) in favour of other ones.
This is not honest, but (almost) smart.

Trump’ case is different: he doesn’t trust legitimate sources, but not (always) in favour of other ones.
This is not honest, but (almost) smart.

Trump is a consummate liar and a bully. Once you realise he does actually know the truth and does his best to hide or discredit anything that conflicts with his lies all else is understandable.

When people trust “misinformation” more than they do legitimate sources or fact based information then anything is possible.

The problem is that much of the “classic” media like newspapers and TV are more or less constantly doing something between lying and misinforming and just trying to advance their own narrative. Are there any “legitimate” sources of fact left? German public TV (every German household is forced to pay them 18 Euros per month, for very little terms of news quality reporting in return) established something called the “Faktenfinder” (“fact finder”) to counter perceived “fake news”, but every time you research one of the topics they discuss in depth, you find out that they surely state some of the facts, but not nearly all of them. They conveniently leave out any information not fitting their narrative. Even worse than the “fair and balanced news” outfit from the other side of the pond.

Trumps “Fake News” mantra is resonating everywhere and with a minor victory in the Russia probe he can lend even more weight to that mantra.

The biggest problem is that this “mantra” was and is – at least partly – a very good factual description of the reporting practices both in the US and (where I follow the media a lot closer) Germany.

Social media is great for a lot of things but it is the equivalent of the baying mob at hangings in a lot of cases and that does not bode well for social cohesion if it is not challanged or controlled.

What is subsummed under “social media” is a very wide field. I have found the best and most balanced collection of facts usually in blog posts by highly intelligent people who are expert in one or a few fields of interest. Even the comment sections of those blogs sometimes contain better information than the average newspaper. Very seldomly have I found something worthwhile in Facebook or Twitter, apart from an interesting link to further information now and then.

So: it depends. However, unless you spent much more time than should be necessary, it is very difficult to find the places of worthwhile information in that ocean of disinformation. In theory, the press should be the service provider to collect this information, but they fail badly at this. IMHO of course.

The problem with people who trust fake news is that they have no common sense.

I disagree. Fake news can be a lot more subtle and insidious than a headline in a paper known for making up stuff.
My mother said to me earlier that the Queen does not like John Bercow (the Speaker), it was mentioned on a programme on the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation (BBC).

I immediately called her on it. The Queen is not supposed to have opinions in the political realm, those she may express in private are not to be shared, and it’s hard to imagine she dislikes Bercow but is totally cool with Johnson (who may be the next PM).
No. I call bullshit and fake news. Because the people who support Brexit like the Queen (she’s a giant symbol of rule Britannia) and Bercow is a blatant Remainer who has just thrown a big spanner into the works, therefore…

Obvious fake news is obvious. The sneaky little lies that slip under the radar are the ones that can make the difference.

If you can’t trust legitimate sources, you can’t trust illegitimate sources either.

If it’s British or American media we’re talking about, I would rate some of them as “unsuitable even for toilet paper”, but none of them as shining beacons of trust.
Oh, they’ll tell you they tell the truth and that they’re not biased, but I do recall years of watching CNN (it was the free one on satellite) saying exactly the same thing while carrying on a pro-America slant that should have been embarrassing.

the problem is not that they don’t trust legitimate sources, but that they trust the others.

I’ve said it a hundred times – confirmation bias. People pay more attention to “sources” that promote the same sort of ideology and thoughts as their own, that is to say that your average Brexit voter will pay more attention to the likes of the Daily Mail and the Express than, say, The Guardian (which will be dismissed as “loony left bollocks”).
The people pushing Brexit are saying what these people want to hear. They don’t want to hear that the troubles in the NHS is because of years of mismanagement, and the lack of beds is because all you old farts aren’t dying off quick enough. They want to hear it’s all the fault of somebody else (foreigners) and there’s a quick fix (leave Europe).
Rinse and repeat many times for many topics. It’s somebody else to blame and here’s a quick solution. We’ll throw in some warm beer, cold chips, and idiotic world war two references to stop anybody questioning the argument. Are you a patriot or not? Blah blah blah.

IMHO of course.

Not at all – it’s completely true. Media now gets around rules on balance and fair play by presenting “opinion pieces”. They aren’t news, they aren’t facts, just opinions. By important people pushing their agenda. It’s little more than a giant propaganda mill now.
They’re all in on it. The PM herself made reference to the several thousand angry white folks that just marched to London. She more or less completely disregarded the million odd that held the earlier demonstration (maybe because nobody got beat up or arrested?) and she seems content to disregard the aforementioned poll, which now stands at 6,022,948 signatures.

Who can we trust? It’s not an easy answer. But I’m quite happy I can read news in French and sort of muddle through Spanish (or get my mother to translate). The difference in reporting on the same things can be… Quite remarkable.

Just remember one thing well – Europe and it’s politicians have been preparing for a little over a year for a crash out Brexit. They don’t want it, but the general opinion is the current government (either side) is too damn incompetent to come up with anything else. They don’t want it but they expect it, and have acted according to their expectations.
Has the UK made any serious preparations? Or are the pro Brexit guys still trying to say that the UK can “opt back in” in a few years if Brexit doesn’t work?

Yes, the UK will be able to rejoin, and probably fast tracked as a previous member state. However it will come at a cost. There will be no opt outs, Schengen will be expected, as will the adoption of the Euro. Any one of the EU countries could veto the whole thing, so don’t expect the newbies to take kindly to Britain demanding lots of special exemptions. You have them now but you won’t have them in the future.

Seems to me that a real patriot would try to stop the country succumbing to collective madness that will damage it. The UK “as an entity” has already taken a bad hit to its reputation. We’re no longer the bastion of democracy and civilised stability (keep calm and put the kettle on). We’re now a second rate MAGA with nothing to back it up, seemingly unaware that we’ve been punching above our weight for years. Plus we actually had a pretty damn good setup with the EU. A part of it, but on the periphery. This made the UK a good way into the European market for overseas companies (like all those Japanese car manufacturers in the throes of bailing out). A true patriot would think that that’s a better place to be than alone, isolated, and ready to be pushed around by everybody.

But hey, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (sorry, Tommy Robinson (formerly Andrew McMaster, Paul Harris, and Wayne King!) because Stephen Yaxley-Lennon just isn’t working class British enough) has a podium. But he ain’t no god damned patriot no matter how many flags he wears and waves. Populism is based upon lies and false promises and it never ends well (because it can’t deliver). We’re seeing this unfold day by day. Speaking of which, isn’t it useless cow’s fourth attempt to get her turd through parliament tomorrow?

No April Fool on my blog, parliament has it covered…

Just remember one thing well – Europe and it’s politicians have been preparing for a little over a year for a crash out Brexit. They don’t want it, but the general opinion is the current government (either side) is too damn incompetent to come up with anything else.

The whole story of the current BREXIT treaty (aka “The May deal”) that understandably failed to get a pro vote in parliament (backstop anyone?) tells me that the EU’s interest (not to be confused with European interest or the people’s interest) was only one: to set an example, to make it clear to every EU member that it is a very bad idea to try to leave, and to make it as hard as possible for the UK to leave.

If you look at who did the negotiations from the EU’s side, especially at Martin Selmayr, it should be very clear what the one and only objective of the EU bureaucrats was: make the BREXIT has unfavourable for the UK as possible. No matter how much it hurts the remaining EU members.

Figures in power (unelected by the people, I might add) like Selmayr and Juncker alone are a very good reason to leave the EU. The amount of incompetence and maliciousness is simply staggering, and they are basically unaccountable. These are the guys who make the idea of the subsidiarity principle a farce. With every decision they make.

The UK side couldn’t organise a p*ss up in the proverbial brewery, they spend two years trying to come up with a deal that was basically impossible as it broke their self-imposed ‘red lines’. It’s not the leaving the EU which is the problem so much as there’s no clue as to what they actually want (other than a magic unicorn) from the UK. David Davis had TWO YEARS to come up with a plan and achieved the square root of f**k all (at great cost), May’s deal is awful but then she was up against her precious red lines.

Whatever the faults of the EU (and there are many) Westminster is by far a worse mess. It is just unfit for purpose – self before party, party before country. The though of giving them even more power is far more worrying than the faults of the EU (IMHO anyway).

Leaving the EU doesn’t seem a sensible move to make to me, but that aside – letting this bunch of self-serving incompetent fools try to do something so complicated? That’s actually scary.