The "Take back control" myth

There are 650 UK Members of Parliament. Each of us elects either 1 or 0 of them (1 if you vote for whoever gets in, 0 if you vote but somebody else gets in, or you didn’t vote). The other 649 or 650 weren’t elected by each of us. So our laws are all created by people we didn’t vote for. (And there is no other way.)

Even if we elected our MP, s/he may or may not represent our views. I recently (and for the first time in my life) wrote to my MP. I said "if you represent me, this is the way you’ll vote". He wrote back saying he was voting in the opposite way.

Better than a referendum each time, tho’!

They represent you, not your opinions!

I still blame David Whatever-he-was-called for all this mess.

Buffoon US President, Buffoon PM-to-be, Unelectable opposition.

Another dismal, depressing thread!

That and the imminent end-of-the-world!

Hehe, I see you fixed the subject. ;-)

He wrote back saying he was voting in the opposite way.

In an ideal world, you’d look to see if you could find another option. But sometimes that could be hard.

Recent example, if I had the right to vote in May’s snap election, I’d probably have voted Labour. I am a LibDem myself, and my thoughts on Corbyn would contain many obscenities, suffice to say that I hope both parties burn in hell in the future. So why Labour? Easy. Lib Dems are not strong, so supporting Labour would be the best way to kick May in the teeth.

Of course, the bright person might wonder about the logic of voting for something I don’t believe in in preference to something that I do – and to that I’d ask for a pointer to an honest politician. I don’t mean the little guys like Clive (and I’m glad the greens did well in the EU elections), I mean the ones with the power to make the big decisions. Ask yourself, does Boris “fsck business” Johnson actually give a damn about any of us, or even Brexit for that matter? All he wants is to get his hands on power. It’s pretty much the same logic as Corbyn calling for an election at, well, pretty much every time he opens his mouth these days.

I recently (and for the first time in my life) wrote to my MP.

I’ve never written to an MP. Pretty much the last politician that I had any faith in was Paddy Ashdown. Pretty much everything since those days has been a gradual slide into the “sh!tshow” (German bloke said it best) that represents the UK these days.

So our laws are all created by people we didn’t vote for. (And there is no other way.)

I think that’s where the idea of “the party” comes in. Generally speaking, one should expect certain things from candidates of a given party, be it Green or Tory or whatnot. I mean, you’re hardly going to find a socialist being a Tory councillor, but it’s not really much surprise how many Tories are leaning towards Farage…

So while your MP might not agree with all of your views, there ought to be a broad similarity of opinion.

Are you willing to say what you wanted your MP to vote for?

By the way, the whole “loss of control” is a myth. While the EU promotes harmonisation, countries still remain sovereign. There may be times when The Big Court punishes the UK (actually quite a number of times as the government appears to hate all citizens equally), but that’s only because you pretty much need to go extrajudicial if your opponent is your own government.

And, as has been clearly demonstrated over the past few years, if all of this is an indication of what “taking back control” is, I think we’d all be better off run by a Spanish olive cooperative. I mean, hell, anything is surely better than the current government!

That and the imminent end-of-the-world!

No such thing.

If you meant climate change, the planet has been much warmer, it’s been much colder. It may become hostile to us, but that’s not the end of the world, only the end of humanity (to which I can imagine a hundred million extinct critters rejoicing).

If you meant some silly sod pushing the Big Red Button and nuking us all, might I take a moment to remind you that the planet has undergone several catastrophic extinction events. Most of everything was wiped out, but life came back. We can trace or own genetic coding back to LUCA (not Lucy, she’s a lot later). So in the future, whether a giant bolide or a giant mushroom cloud, life will carry on. It might hiccup for a few million years, but it’s not the end.

To put it into context, a hurtling lump of rock about ten miles across smacking into the planet will extinctify everything everywhere in a matter of days. The energy from that one event is in the order of a million times more powerful than Russia’s Tsar bomb (the biggest nuke ever tested). But life came back and currently uses the wiped out dinosaurs to power their vehicles – such injustice!

Anyway, it’s not the end of the world. We’d probably need to wait around five billion years for the Sun to run out of fuel and blow itself up. The sun is around 4.6 billion years old so the needle on the gauge is on the halfway mark. So it’s not an imminent threat…

I’ve never written to an MP.

As the then Chairman of a local conservation group I had occasion to meet not only the local MP but all the county councillors, with specific emphasis on those on the planning committee.

What can I say beyond the MP of the time (Jim Pawsey)¹ shook hands with me and left me looking for the Swarfega and some of the councillors caused me to check my wallet and valuables.

¹ Time moves on and the MP is one Mark Pawsey and if anything the situation has gone downhill.

By the way, the whole “loss of control” is a myth. While the EU promotes harmonisation, countries still remain sovereign.

In one word: wrong.

Whatever legislation the EU creates, the national parliaments have to put that into national law. And it can only ever be changed on EU level – so the normal voter cannot even vote on a national level for someone who is able to initiate change, because there still needs to be a majority found (or even unanimity for some things!), so change is a lot harder to organize than on a national level.

Since there is nobody and nothing that stops the EU to even regulate the smallest part of our lives (like e.g. reducing the power consumption of an electric kettle)…unfortunately, the principle of subsidiarity only exists on paper.

The EU is a disaster for democracy in every conceivable way.

The EU is a disaster for democracy in every conceivable way.

In one word: wrong.

It arguably might be called a disaster for individual freedom, but then democracy is inevitably a disaster for individual freedom, whatever scale it operates on. The existence of other people is a disaster for individual people (other than the one dictator in a dictatorship). But so far as democracy is concerned, the EU is a lot more democratic than the UK, and has made things better for most of the citizens of the UK (at the expense of the individual freedoms of some of the elite).

But so far as democracy is concerned, the EU is a lot more democratic than the UK, and has made things better for most of the citizens of the UK (at the expense of the individual freedoms of some of the elite).

I don’t have intimate knowledge of the UK parliamental system, but somehow I doubt that it also lacks one of the cornerstones of parliamental democracies called “division of power” in the same way as the EU.

The EU parliament has not even the right to initiate legislative proposals! But the EU parliament is the only thing “votable” for the EU people. The EU comission, on the other hand, which is somehow a combined legislation-and-execution thingy, is created in a highly political (and non-democratic) process that we all can witness for the next few weeks. Which is a disgusting wheeling-and-dealing process.

I also doubt that the comparative weight of a vote between a Londoner and a Liverpooler is as different as say a vote of a German compared toa vote of a Maltese.

I also doubt that the comparative weight of a vote between a Londoner and a Liverpooler is as different as say a vote of a German compared toa vote of a Maltese.

Apologise for interrupting, but I think that’s an irrelevant comparison, even if you had replaced Liverpool by Llanrhystud. The point is that votes are individual. A Malteser – or a Llanrhystudder for that matter – has exactly the same choice as anyone else. That’s democracy, as far as I understood it.

[it was a pleasant evening, so…. epic wall of text follows]

I doubt that it also lacks one of the cornerstones of parliamental democracies called “division of power”

It certainly lacks anything resembling accountability. Boris lied, quite openly, all over the side of a large red bus. The result was to basically shrug and suggest that all that stuff said and done during the referendum didn’t sway the opinions of voters, nothing to see here, move along…
Oh, and Gove (who is on the record for admitting to doing coke a long time ago) got skewered for that admission, while Boris (who is on the record for admitting to doing coke a long time ago) hasn’t had much from that admission other than some people pointing out the blatant double standards. Not that it’ll change anything. After all, this is the political system that has spent years treating an advisory non-binding referendum as the sacrosanct “democratic will of the people”, and making it clear that there will be no further referendum to verify that this mess is what the people actually wanted, while Theresa May has decided to throw in the towel rather than suffer her unwanted “deal” being defeated a FOURTH time. Forget division of power, we’re still stuck on accountability and hypocrisy. And the fact that it’s quite likely that Boris will be the next PM. Oh joy. As if it couldn’t be any more embarrassing to be a Brit.

But the EU parliament is the only thing “votable” for the EU people. The EU comission, on the other hand, which is somehow a combined legislation-and-execution thingy, is created in a highly political (and non-democratic) process that we all can witness for the next few weeks.

However…
The Commission is collectively accountable to Parliament under Article 234 TFEU. If Parliament adopts a motion of censure against the Commission, all of its members are required to resign, including the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy as far as his or her duties in the Commission are concerned.
[ http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/25/the-european-commission ]

Convoluted, sure. But not undemocratic.

Note also:

1. The commission has no decision-making powers as such. EU legislation can only be made by the assent of the Council of Ministers (sometimes along with that of the European parliament). While the commission has the sole right to present proposals for legislation, it has extensive powers to intervene in the deliberations of the other institutions to promote agreement and is empowered to ignore and overrule suggestions put to it by the parliament, it ultimately has no law-making powers of its own.
2. The commission does not decide whether member states or other bodies are in breach of the treaties or other EU law. While it initiates ‘failure to act’ proceedings, the European courts deliver the rulings.
[ https://www.politics.co.uk/reference/european-union-guide ]

Whatever legislation the EU creates, the national parliaments have to put that into national law.

You forget that the UK has a set of nicely negotiated opt-outs. All that stuff about making weights and measures metric across the EU? See how far that gets you in an English butcher when you’re sold meat by some system of counting base 16? Or is it 24? Or maybe the roll of two dice?

Ultimately, while a lot of civil servants do the day to day grunt work, actually agreeing to stuff is up to the Council of Ministers. Representatives from each European country.

so change is a lot harder to organize than on a national level.

That’s probably why the EU concerns itself with pan-European issues. Harmonisation of copyright, for example. Or whether or not people with autism can be discriminated in school and work.
I very much doubt that the EU even remotely cares that France changed all its major (non-motorway or 2×2) roads from 90kph to 80kph last year, or that next year some of the regions of France will revery back to the original 90kph (ultimately meaning it’ll be a mess!).

Since there is nobody and nothing that stops the EU to even regulate the smallest part of our lives

It’s possible, yes. But it might be worth remembering that the next time you vote for your MEPs. The people you vote for affect the EU. And big issues do get put out to referenda. I recall there being one around 2006 or so?

like e.g. reducing the power consumption of an electric kettle

I’m not sure that there’s much use to reducing the power consumption of a kettle. However there was a good reason to reduce the power ratings of vacuum cleaners. Cheap rubbish models, instead of designing a decent cleaner, simply stuck bigger and bigger motors inside and bragged on the casing 2200W in big letters. Huh? Two and a quarter kilowatt to suck dirt off the floor? Well, of course, because the build quality is appalling and it leaks air all over. We have one such naff model at work, and it only barely loads the motor if I block the nozzle with my hand. There are plenty of other places air can get in. Given the push for renewable energy sources (as fossil fuels are bad and nobody likes newkewler these days), it doesn’t make sense to waste energy on a vacuum cleaner when a better made device could do a superior job with less than half the power. It really was a race to the bottom.

As for the EU’s desire to kill off tungsten bulbs… at 60W apiece I might have had one in my room, two in mom’s room, one in the living room, one in the kitchen… that’s already 300W, just for lighting. I’ve replaced the old bulbs with LED bulbs. I avoided CFL, hated them, hated their ambience, their warmup, their being prone to flicker. But with warm white LED bulbs available now that have a tonal balance not unlike a tungsten bulb, I made the switch. Each bulb, 6W. All on together, 30W. That’s a tenth of the energy consumption.
I’ve also installed several PIR LED floodlights outside, they have batteries and a solar panel. Come on when they detect motion. From a shop called Action, they cost less than a fiver each. Light in the shed, or down by the barn where the cat lives, or in the hangar where the car lives, when I need it, powered by the sun and not EDF.
Sorry, I’m not really certain that I can argue that pushing for reduced energy consumption is a bad thing, especially as electricity prices keep going up. Why d’you think I leave my Pi on all the time, and not my PC? Why d’you think I watch videos and such on my phone or tablet and not on the 14" CRT telly? Less energy use ultimately costs less. That’s probably why the majority part of our electricity bill is the standing charge.

The tl;dr version of the above waffle – I’m not convinced that the EU regulation is malicious or necessarily bad. Sure, there may be bad directives that come out from time to time, but this isn’t really any different to governments implementing bad (or badly written) laws of their own. Like May’s implementation of blanket stop and search rights for the police. Probably won’t be a big deal to anybody reading this if they’re white. [ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/stop-and-search-knife-crime-uk-police-government-a8846406.html ]

It arguably might be called a disaster for individual freedom

The first thing I’d say is to define what exactly is meant by “individual freedom”.

• That cute 12 year old across the street? No, she’s not available, if you know what I mean.
• You get to see some pretty cool driving in those Fast and Furious movies. No you cannot do that on the M25, nor is it permitted to drift around The Elephant and Castle.
• As much as it might seem like a way to deal with current events, it is not permissible to implant bullets in people’s heads.
  Even Farage (use milkshake!).
• Hands up who has had days when they really really want to punch their boss in the face.
  Keep your hand up if you actually did it.
  There’s a name for people like you…

So, pray tell, what are these “freedoms” that the EU is destroying?

Let me tell you some of the freedoms the EU gave me.

• First up, I left the UK and went to live in France. A place with trees, maize, cows, pigs, and not so many people. All that cool stuff you see on Amélie or Hugo? That’s not here. Here it’s rush hour when two tractors try to pass on a road just about wide enough for one of them.
• Next, France’s infamous beaurocracy had exactly zero interest in me during my first five years here. I was not a “burden on the state”, but then the state just wasn’t interested in my presence. However after five years of residence, I could “exercise my treaty rights” (with tax declarations to prove residence) and suddenly the state took notice. I was allocated CMU (basic health cover) and what everybody thinks is a pitiful job seeker’s allowance (<cough> t’was more than the UK!).
• So I looked for work. And thanks to the non-discrimination rules, the main criteria was whether or not I was capable of understanding enough French to follow instructions. The company I went to work for… well… they decided to take me on despite the girl holding the interview in English for me (uhhh!?), and guess what – I’m still there over ten years later.
• And even as a foreigner, I am on a proper (CDI in French) contract, not a never ending serious of short term contracts. That’s, actually, not legal. Or kind. You’d be surprised at how many things open up when you have a CDI. Even a CDI in what is basically glorified bog scrubbing. Okay, I do a lot more than that (the word in French is “polyvalent”), but I’m not “encadrement” or somebody with “a company car”. Not that it bothers me. The big industrial dish washer is kaput. Had to work around the maintenance guys pulling out circuit boards. But then along comes 16h45 and you know what? WEEKEND! It’s totally not my problem any more. It might be my problem again on Monday, but I have exactly zero concern about it right now. Nor am I concerned about production. I don’t know if they’re ahead, behind, freaking out over some new product… not my problem. The green hats get paid something like twice what we get. It’s their problem. And the stress. And the needing to stay behind if stuff goes nuts. And the planning for how to use the people and resources of the factory to get the best throughput. And… and… and…
  Anyway, as a non-French person I currently (Brexit notwithstanding) have the right to live, work, and be treated as any other French person in pretty much everything except regional and national elections, or jobs that are “working for the state”.
• When I worked in the UK, I had no rights to paid holiday time. I would now (and I get it here in France). Because EU.
• Improved healthcare thanks to better control of medicines, practicioners, pan-Europe research, and the ability for professionals trained in one country to work in another – something the NHS is discovering the hard way.
• A safer environment – the EU is big on green issues. It’s not just the beaches that are safer (especially the UKs), it’s the air quality, water quality, etc etc. Okay, some change is going to take time – especially around industrial areas – but it’s happening. And it’s a good thing.

I also doubt that the comparative weight of a vote between a Londoner and a Liverpooler is as different as say a vote of a German compared toa vote of a Maltese.

Because you don’t like that the smaller states have greater “power per vote” than a large country such as Germany?
Well… https://www.cer.eu/in-the-press/germanys-euro-advantage (note, it mentions 2009-2010 so it’s not a recent article) suggests that perhaps your own country is (was?) taking advantage of loopholes? Stones, gllass houses, you know that one…

As for the Liverpool / London question, it’s decided by constituencies. There is no direct “fifty billion idiots voted for Farage”. Instead, the people in each little area vote. These votes are tallied up and a winner announced (an MP for that area is elected). All the MPs are tallied up, and the overall winner is the party with the most MPs. So, yeah, I guess the ‘weight’ of a vote could depend upon the population level of each constituency. I don’t know about Germany, but I know that – like America – France has two rounds of voting. One for the President, and one for the government. And unless there’s a clear winner in the first vote, there’s a second vote between the top two of the first vote. Which means this last time, it came down to a choice between Macron (new sort-of-centre) and Le Pen (national front). So if you are a Mélanchon style leftie/borderline communist, who would you vote for? Would either of them be considered to represent you? In the UK, there’s one vote. No, the people did not choose May. They won’t choose Boris. And if there’s a general election held, the people will be voting for the party (and their local councillors). If the Tories should win again, if Boris holds a snap election (because that worked so well for May), there’s pretty much nothing to stop Boris reassigning the entire cabinet and replacing himself with Jeremy Hunt the very next day. Because the people don’t vote for that. The people can’t vote for that.

The point is that votes are individual. A Malteser – or a Llanrhystudder for that matter – has exactly the same choice as anyone else.

This.

Rick: my bit about individual freedom was rhetorical – I agree 100% with you. All democracy is a curb on individual freedoms – where they conflict with the individual freedoms of others. And thank goodness for those curbs, I wish they were more effective in many instances.

I just logged-in without deleting cookies using Netsurf!

Apparently, ’cos I looked it up, the French for buffoon is buffon.

Just a point of information!

I just logged-in without deleting cookies using Netsurf!

Apparently, ’cos I looked it up, the French for buffoon is buffon.

Just a point of information!

Just a point of information!

Your second point was? :)

Like May’s implementation of blanket stop and search rights for the police. Probably won’t be a big deal to anybody reading this if they’re white.

For those who were teen or young adults in places like Birmingham in the mid-70s the effects of the so called “suss laws” were more than clear even if you were white, but definitely bad if you happened to have more than a summer tan.
These days the massive population of smartphone owners tends to limit the abuses. so probably less of an issue now than it was then. Not good, but at least more limited.

Hands up who has had days when they really really want to punch their boss in the face.
Keep your hand up if you actually did it.
There’s a name for people like you…

Hmmm. How does making statements like “There’s a village somewhere missing an idiot” stand in the rankings.¹
Not my line manager, an associate director is a much more interesting target.

¹ When someone says “you’re making me look like an idiot” what else do you do but point out that they are “doing most of the work on that job” ? The village comment is just an easy follow up.

WTaF is going on?!?

That is all.

WTaF is going on?!?

Well a promising French F2 driver died at the weekend, Lewis Hamilton managed second in F1, Vettel demonstrated how bad he was by driving one of the two fastest cars on the track to 4th, I’ve sorted out a number of networking problems at work, the cats are all fed and happy¹ and people at work keep talking about how stupid Boris is, despite some of the idiots having voted for brexit, and I haven’t turned the TV on in days except to watch the GP highlights and a “Guitar Heroes” program.²

If you’re asking about Westminster then all I can say is that I am sure that once Boris and pals sort a good description of their elbows and their nether orifice that they will set off in search of the latter armed with a powerful light source and a Sherpa guide – expected probability of success is somewhere near zero and they may find their elbow.
As for “F’s”, you may have to give yours because I think I’ve run out.

¹ They keep letting me know at obscure hours of the night with imitations of road drills in my ear.

I was pointed at this:

Johnson’s Q&A
Q: Aren’t people entitled to ask, if your own brother can’t back you, why should anyone else?

Apparently people have greeted Boris with some slightly modified lyrics “Where’s your brother gone,…”

He also claims he’d rather be dead in a ditch than renegotiate with Europe. Something he claimed he was doing. That’s the problem with lying, you need to remember what tosh you actually said.

He also claims he’d rather be dead in a ditch than renegotiate with Europe.

No, than ask Europe for an extension past 31st October. I think you’ve misunderstood or been misinformed.

I think you’ve misunderstood or been misinformed.

Possibly on the latter, but on a check for the phrase (Reference)

“He says an extension would cost £1bn a month and be “totally pointless”.”

One presumes an extension would be totally pointless because he hasn’t presented any proposals and hasn’t done any negotiating to date (despite claiming otherwise).

I must emphasise that I was in no way defending him! If he were dead in a ditch, I wouldn’t worry overly!

And he is undoubtedly a liar and manipulator. But we knew that already.

I caught both of those quotes on the news as I was walking the wheelie bin up the lane (listening to Eagle ’80s).

I’m afraid the first thing that came into my mind… That can be arranged.

Unfortunately, perhaps the only good reason that that serial fibber Johnson is PM is that Rees-Mogg isn’t.

Whilst I understand emotions run high the sort of comments I have seen on this thread make rather unpleasant reading.

The sort of language used makes it easy for someone to justify taking extreme measures and have we not learnt anything from the death of poor Jo Cox or the extreme abuse dished out to Jess Phillips and others.

By all means disagree with someone but please keep it civil as after all of this we will need to return to some normality.

Whilst I understand emotions run high the sort of comments I have seen on this thread make rather unpleasant reading.

I only quoted his own words. But I think your point is well-made.

Personally I blame David Cameron, but doubtless he will reap his own rewards in heaven.

I wish him no harm.

I must emphasise that I was in no way defending him! If he were dead in a ditch, I wouldn’t worry overly!

No worries.

BTW. It should be noted that the being “dead in a ditch” is of course a direct quote of Boris himself.
As to wishing him harm or not, while I consider him to be one of a number of self-interested oiks I’d really rather have him alive to suffer the fallout of his actions.
Considering the prevalence of people tending to direct action on grievances I consider him stupid to invite the not so “divine lightning bolt” escape route.