Esperanto vs English

witches (burn them!) or saints (hype them!).

I thought saints were usually martyred, and often by burning.

The hype aspect is often long delayed.

Both categories are dangerous. Other people’s imaginations frequently are.

Other people’s imaginations frequently are.

Imaginations aren’t dangerous. Failing to understand the difference between that which is imagined and that which is real is what’s dangerous.

and i knew what you mean too but ‘sane’ is ableism. and nearly no 7Esperantists are asking people to abandon their mother tongue!! is theory b. except me :-p :-p
‘’
So, we have “a language that people actually use”, “a language that encompasses the many varied cultures and methods of expressing language”, and “a language that won’t make anybody feel that their historical identity is being replaced by something from somewhere else”.
’’

so i was trying go against you on 1. that which people use. i was prentending to attack you personally because if readers could see you are saying this as 7English person (which not true, theory b, and also you might surprise me and say your mother speaks 7Esperanto) they all might know that there are great resources for learning 7Esperanto! and for learning constructed languages! 7Esperanto is a real language! there are people whose first native language was 7Esperanto. although i do not know who. maybe roots of this verbage is in 7England but i bet you all have more or better 7Esperanto language associations there. i know how it sounds and to schoolchildren or 7Americans if you write that 7Esperanto is not a real language than it discouraging. if it helps anyone the 7CIA says it takes 4 years to learn a language. well i really (really?) struggled with college so where you say a decade i say yo ‘’Rick_Murry and others are depressing me ☹️☹️!! dont believe this hype! 7Esperanto is a very cool language!! it makes so much sense! and because of that it is easy to learn. and so where you say decade i say dont depress me. i dont understand are people afraid of 7English disappearing? when so few people speak 7Esperanto. (7Esperanto is good on gender issues. i can explain. besides that lgbtqia :-D people in almost all languages find a way. i was afraid a few weeks ago i would have trouble with 4German but already see there are different solutions. theory b. and 7Lingua_Franca_Nova explicitly is neutral. theory c.) but i might say i am not interested in culture so much. i am interested in language. music does interest me. furthermore if there is a general appreciation for learning and languages then multilingual should fit into place.
(also latinx is topic of gender neutral there. so if case where @ symbol shows up in forum what you going to do. if you all seem to freak out if insert a number (can help me understand if dont) which seems could easily ignore (or does screen reader?) then what is all that talk about languages evolve and adapt if you all dont practice it) so multilingual is an equality issue). but to try and get out of food fight mode. besides i do not get the "7Esperanto and 7Interlingua were tried but they failed’’ from what is the research on that? as if it was a done deal. so to get to this side of argument you could provide links if you want or just say. what is there in the language of 4Esperanto that would make it not good(?) linguistically as a language or as any type of universal or common language. as far as details of the language go. or was that even what wanted to talk about. (like if they all have another language brewed or built in garage then great! i can learn that after 7Esperanto then. it shouldnt be that big of a deal. but i dont think there is a complete universal language comes out every day. or is that college assignment? so still isnt 7Esperanto super good for this?!?)

‘’
So, we have “a language that people actually use”, “a language that encompasses the many varied cultures and methods of expressing language”, and “a language that won’t make anybody feel that their historical identity is being replaced by something from somewhere else”.
’’
/but/ if you give me 2. encompasses many and 3. not replacing by else which 4Esperanto and constructed languages do then i am ok with 1.
people know the problem of predicting the future. especially if you predict it in said language. it is 4Sapp(?)4Whorf(?) hypothesis. but even if 4Sapp(?)4Whorf(?) hypothesis is not true you still have that 7Esperanto is a good language. so i anticipate that you all will say about 3. that constructed languages always come from somewhere else. but i do not accept that. theory d. also not as a requirement for a universal language. if you want have seperate common and universal languages i am ok (at least) with that. like i said we should be multilingual. dankon. malsaluton(?) lol.

about 7Gavin_Wraith s link i should plan to look at. but while defending this issue i think it prejudice. as in educationally retarded for who? for 4British school system? that is nationalism. so what if the twins had invented 7Esperanto? so arguing from social(?) biology would be racist. linguists would just ask ‘is this a good kanguage?’ .
i say if someone listens to so called schizophrenic person with empathy for 5 minutes like 90 percent of information relevant to then is understood. not their like entire intergenerational history, but all that should matter for them as individual.

also though i think should use alphabet translators. i mean being able to represent one language in more than one alphabet or pronunciation system.

Well… it was a choice of reply to this, or beat seven shades out of a random bramble bush. Since I had a hard day at work…

and i knew what you mean too but ‘sane’ is ableism.

Enough with the SJW nonsense.
I fully support wheelchair ramps for disabled people, equal rights for women and the right for coloured people to not to be shot by dumbass racist cops.

But I don’t support equal rights for insanity. Thirty seconds of pondering the question ought to give a few reasons why.

i was prentending to attack you personally

You were? Oh. Sorry. Your messages are really difficult to understand, so I didn’t get that at all.
Should I pretend to be offended?
<mic drop>

and also you might surprise me and say your mother speaks 7Esperanto)

My mother doesn’t speak anything, she died.

However, in life, she was fluent in English, Spanish, and French. Basic conversational German. Some written Portuguese (due to its similarity to Spanish). And she could read enough Greek and Hebrew to figure out what road signs said.

Good enough for you?

7Esperanto is a real language!

I never said it wasn’t.
But it isn’t a real language in the way that French is. It doesn’t have…

…what’s the word…

…history.

That’s it. It doesn’t have history.

there are people whose first native language was 7Esperanto. although i do not know who.

Well, if you ever find out, tell them they have my pity. They probably should have learned a language that a reasonable number of people in the world actually use, like French or Spanish…

if it helps anyone the 7CIA says it takes 4 years to learn a language.

I wouldn’t put too much credence in that. That “factoid” is missing a lot of information, such as the age of learners (children pick up languages a lot faster than adults), intelligence, socioeconomic background, stress, and the main one – the desire to actually learn. Whether doing it “for pleasure” where it can take as long as it needs, or whether because of necessity.
Example? I speak French. Sort of. Because I live in France. So, in order to be employed, buy a car, sort out insurance and bank accounts… there was pretty much no alternative. Sure, some people do speak English, but this is a rural place, not a big city. Not so many people speak English. Or, rather, not so many people are willing to admit to speaking English.
Nobody at work does (although I know for a fact that my bosses in Q&A need to know it because a lot of the stuff they deal with comes in in English). Suits me, I don’t talk much anyway. :-P

and so where you say decade i say dont depress me.

I never gave any time duration. Generally the time it takes to learn a language is directly based upon how much effort one puts into it. I’m not putting much effort into learning Japanese, which is why I’m no further along than I was years ago. It’s just for fun, as opposed to French which is a necessity and gets spoken every day.

but i might say i am not interested in culture so much. i am interested in language.

I tend to consider attempting to learn a little about a language helps to open up some of the culture, which in turn helps explain some aspects of the language.

If you concentrate on the language and disregard the culture, then you’re missing out. Like watching a television in black and white.

That said, this may not yet be a factor in Esperanto. I suppose it is too “new” to have evolved in the way that “real” (as in non-created) languages have.

Something to ponder. In French, there is a circumflex accent on a vowel. For example fête, bête, hôpital, forêt, côte, château, île… what is the significance of that accent?
[John – don’t reply!]

if you all seem to freak out if insert a number

Because one of the primary purposes of a language is to allow people to communicate. Inserting numbers into the flow of the text is an impediment to understanding. Perhaps in interesting psychological case too, as I believe people process letters and numbers differently, so you’re maybe also causing unnecessary mental context switches (here’s some words, and oh, now a number, oh wait, no it’s not, it’s some sort of word, is this number meaningful? crap, let’s go back and read this one again… <- that’s pretty much the thought process involved).

then what is all that talk about languages evolve and adapt if you all dont practice it

nybdy cn try wys t mk lngg vlv, bt vltn nly hppns whn ngh ppl ctlly s th nw d tht t thn bcms prt f th lngg. f nly n prsn ds t, t’s n ffcttn. Lk cmmngs.

If that, with all vowels omitted (no, it wasn’t Welsh ☺), made any sense at all, congratulations.

Here’s a non-broken version:

Anybody can try ways to make a language evolve, but evolution only happens when enough people actually use the new idea that it then becomes a part of the language. If only one person does it, it’s an affectation. Like e e cummings.

but i dont think there is a complete universal language comes out every day. or is that college assignment?

No, it was thinking about what could feasibly replace English as humanity’s global language.

Oh, and if you’ll allow me a moment of SJW mode: universal? As a species we haven’t made it beyond the gravitational field of this lump of rock…

it is 4Sapp(?)4Whorf(?) hypothesis. but even if 4Sapp(?)4Whorf(?) hypothesis is not true you still have that 7Esperanto is a good language.

Sapir-Whorf’s hypothesis was that the structure of a language affected a person’s world view and manner of thinking. An extreme case is given in Orwell’s 1984 where “Newspeak” basically prevents people from thinking about the government’s actions or their lot in life by removing the words that they might use to articulate such thoughts. Toki Pona is aimed at philosophical minimalism.

A much smaller example is that French does not appear to have a word for “home”. Sure, there is “chez moi” and so on, but that’s talking about a physical place and not an emotional one.
An example I would give is when I heard an ex-pat, in the house that she owned over here, talking about “going home for Christmas”. She wasn’t sure where, exactly, a relative or a motel… but for her, “home” meant England and not a specific building.
I’m not sure there’s a direct translation for that, so maybe it’s harder for French people to understand the concept if they don’t have a word for it? It is, I guess, a sort of sentimental nationalism.

By the way, there is actually no such thing as a Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. They never co-authored a paper. They may have had similar thoughts regarding language, but this hypothesis thing was done by other people later on (and conveniently blamed on them!).

so i anticipate that you all will say about 3. that constructed languages always come from somewhere else. but i do not accept that.

Uh…. you want to vague that up a little for me?

like i said we should be multilingual.

Sure. I find understanding the world is greatly aided by attempting to understand other cultures. And language plays a large part in that.

i say if someone listens to so called schizophrenic person with empathy for 5 minutes like 90 percent of information relevant to then is understood. not their like entire intergenerational history, but all that should matter for them as individual.

Oh, I’ve dealt with people like that when I worked in nursing homes. Trust me, five, ten, or fifteen minutes of gibberish does not say “I want to go to the toilet”. You need to wait for the pee to trickle out, and then try to work out what the hell the smiling oven (made of cheese) with the bunny ears (made of freshly farmed organic velvet from the choisest meatball) had to do with anything.

You want real mind screw – try a bipolar with alzheimers. It’s basically a random word generator.

By contrast, a woman who suffered a bad stroke was only able to say “bye bye”. It was pretty much the last thing she heard, her husband said it thinking she was dying. Now (now being circa 2000ish), it was the only thing she could say. But she was so amazingly expressive that she was able to say an incredible amount of things simply by intonation and emphasis. A single word repeated once, but enough to communicate. That…was truly incredible.

also though i think should use alphabet translators. i mean being able to represent one language in more than one alphabet or pronunciation system.

Been done.

Multiple alphabets? Try what was once known as Yugoslavia. Would you like latin script or cyrillic?

Multiple pronunciation? Try the United Kingdom. A Scouser isn’t a Geordie isn’t from Devon, nor is the Queen. Some of the accents are so thick you’d wonder if they were even speaking the same language.
Don’t expect a southern drip to understand much of anything said in the Black County.

Oh, and when the BBC showed a television series about trawlermen from… Aberdeen, I think… they subtitled it! Probably ’cos the people within the Orbital had no clue what was happening other than “something about boats and shitty weather”.

[John – don’t reply!]

I wouldn’t dream of intruding on your pointless ramblings. For me, it would be the brambles every time!

your pointless ramblings.

And, yet, you not only read but felt compelled to reply.

For me, it would be the brambles every time!

As it happens, I did both.

In Gilbert and Sullivan’s operetta Ruddigore, Sir Ruthven Murgatroyd has discovered that he can calm the ravings of his wife, Mad Meg, by repeating the word Basingstoke. Here, for better or worse, we have Aldershot. If you are feeling a bit Bletchley or have visited Rime Intrinsica via Uploders you may ponder what it was about Bexhill on Sea so to madden the dreaded Batter Pudding Hurler of that town. Wrench that snaffle before the bit is in the teeth.

what is the significance of that accent?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumflex#French

When some “s” disappears, you can have one “^” instead

For example :
Fenêtre, défenestrer.
Pâques, Pascal
Forêt, déforester
Août, Auguste

When some “s” disappears, you can have one “^” instead

I know. ;-)

It was something for entityfree to work out. That, and how it came to be like that, are a part of the evolution of French as a language.

Funny thing is, languages are living things and don’t work when legislated or messed with artificially. Every Frenchie I know still says “bon week” instead of fin du semaine (or whatever), and this seems to be going nowhere fast: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/05/not-the-oignon-fury-france-changes-2000-spellings-ditches-circumflex

What will change French is the way people speak it, not the way some government body wants it to be.
Examples? I’ve yet to see “Ognon”, but I have seen and heard “Meuf”. Because one is actually used, the other… god help us… if oignon was good enough for Napoléon, it’s good enough for the Académie Française.

Arrachez le bridon que le fren ne soit pas pris par les dents? Trop tard.

Funny thing is, languages are living things and don’t work when legislated or messed with artificially.

which is exactly how accents were introduced into French with the advent of the printing press and “standardisation”. So it’s odd that you think this!

While Robert Estienne did introduce the grave and acute accents, there is an obvious similarity to the Latin apex. I wonder if he took that to try to transcribe differences in spoken French that were not clear in its written form. In this case it’s perhaps worth asking “what was French”? Today, the spoken and written forms are synonymous. We talk to each other, we read, well, this.
But back then when the printing press was a really new concept, the primary form would be the spoken versions; and to a degree the written form will be trying to reflect that. French, with its accents, did a better job of transcribing the language than did English, which never quite got over The Great Vowel Shift, leaving us with a messy spelling system that just doesn’t bother with any pronunciation guides.

One of my favourite discoveries is that “guarantee” and “warranty” are really the same word, due to a “branching” of language paths!

What it is in Esperanto is probably irrelevant and has no history or etymological interest, but the “gu” and “w” branching in the etymology of the English word(s) is fascinating, as is the “ee” and “y” equivalence!

I expect that the word “etymology” doesn’t exist in Esperanto – why would it?

fren

frein?

Perhaps we should apply the brakes here, despite some (not a lot of!) interesting discussion!

just for day about 7Gavin_Wraith ‘’
Quite so. But should robots receive the same compassion that we afford people? I put this as a general question, without reference to recent contributions.
’’
well like i think it belongs about thread where i was wondering how should you worry about 7Google translate. a forum might need to seem a little robotic in order for humans who all are important to be able to translate near anything into language of their choosing. using software tool.

and ai(artificial intelligence) is immoral is , ehhh, theory b, because. ….zzzz. it is another huge topic for thread.