I/O

Wouter

Which country will succeed the UK as permanent member of the UN Security Council, Germany?

Ah, I think I’ve figured this one out.
Apparently the “bastion of news fact”¹ Fox news is reporting that the UK has left the UN.

¹ How do you describe the level of irony in that comment without a fifteen page essay?

Richard

Remain to Leave: You’re a bunch of liars

Excuse me, these are politicians you’re describing. I thought the use of untruths was a given in any circumstance.

Rick: I can totally forgive you anger. I truly hope that your personal situation doesn’t develop the way you fear it will.

and I rather hope my Hungarian work colleague and his wife get their residency and Britishness exam stuff sorted in time. I’d like him to stay, as well as the Polish project manager and the Spanish cleaner and… …well a lot of others.
Now Farrage I could do without.

FWIW: I’d lay a fair measure of blame on Cameron and Co…

As I would, and I’m sorry for the position you feel dropped into.

…for a half hearted lacklustre campaign that utterly failed to appeal to or answer the prime issues raised by the various out campaigns.

That too,but you only have to look at the voting patterns to see what’s gone wrong. The ‘leavers’ seem to be concentrated on those parts of England and Wales which have suffered at the hands of Osborne’s austerity programme. It seems to me that many people have protest-voted against the government as opposed to voting to leave the EU.

There was no need for the country to be put through all this. It was Cameron’s bright idea have a referendum in order to assuage (shut up) the Euro-sceptics in the Conservative Party. He thought it wouldn’t come to anything but he didn’t consider the effects of his Chancellor’s economic policies. Too many people treated the affair as a by-election and decided to hit back at the privileged class which had made so many of their lives a misery.

So much for education. :-(

It will not change anything, but it might make some here feel better to look at:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

;-)

Thanks Steve. Even though it will not change anything, I signed it anyway.

Whilst I respect differing points of view (i.e. those that voted Leave), I thought it would make me feel better.

Drawing some comfort from succeeding in getting the updated Xeroid game beta off e-mailed to France tomorrow morning, as I have finished testing the fixes (i.e. to Rick and David).

I would have signed yesterday, but took until this morning for the confirmation email to arrive.

I signed at 8h30, it was around 650,000 signatures.
Just done mom’s one (as Yahoo considered the message to have been spam) and it is currently standing at 870,139.

I find it rather funny that the pro-Leave people are going on and on about how this is a great win for democracy. Really? This can in no way be called a democratic result until every British citizen of majority age was able to vote. I won’t talk about us overseas people as I am obviously biased. However one should consider the potential hazards of an 85 year old, who may not even live long enough to understand what this result really means, being permitted to vote, while the entirety of the young adults group (16 year olds, 17 year olds, …), whose future this will absolutely affect, being prevented from voting.

Plus, it is also worth remembering that only slightly more than half of the voters want this course of action. Slightly under half do not. It is in no way a landslide victory.

It seems to me that many people have protest-voted against the government as opposed to voting to leave the EU.

That’s exactly what happened a few months ago in The Netherlands. The Dutch government was about to sign a very complex sort of EU trade agreement with Ukraine, when some populists organised a referendum about it (such private initiatives are valid in The Netherlands if at least 300,000 signatures can be collected). A few days before we were all expected to submit our votes, these populists gave a press conference, in which they literally stated: “This referendum is about a vote against the government. Of course, we don’t care about Ukraine at all.” (http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/03/31/oekraine-kan-ons-niets-schelen-1606419 – in Dutch).

I’m still wondering what stopped our government from forbidding the referendum then. I think there was a very valid reason to do so.

A very small majority voted against the agreement, an agreement that only some extremely professional experts could fully understand in the first place. The turnout was just above 30%, which made the referendum valid. And so we became the risée of the EU, once more.

However one should consider the potential hazards of an 85 year old, who may not even live long enough to understand what this result really means, being permitted to vote…

The same applies for functional analphabetics, people whose brains are in their belly, people of very low intelligence, alcoholics and a lot more…

But… Democracy is for all!

I wasn’t going to contribute to this thread, but I now see that the Aldershot subforum is defined as “Everything with nothing particularly or remotely to do with ROOL.”. Steve Drain’s post pointing to a petition for a 2nd referendum has prompted me.

In many clubs, associatins and institutions, a change of the constitution requires a two-thirds majority. Now, this may not be appropriate for this EU referendum, but there is something unsatisfactory about a result that only 37.3% of the electorate has voted for (using BBC figures). If you look at the page Steve refers to, the petition asks for a 2nd referendum if the vote (either way) is less than 60% on a turnout of less tha 75%. Now 60% of 75% is 45% and so on this basis there would need to be a second referendum.

One problem, politically, with this petition is that it appears to have been raised after the result was declared on Friday (click through to “Awaiting government response” petitions). This can look like crying foul after you have lost.

However, it occurred to me that, if there are financial or other serious disasters coming round the corner, with a consequent general election called, a future government could refuse to implement the referendum result or call a second referendum.

If only 10%, say, or less of the referendum electorate had voted to leave (eg. 51% on a 19% turnout), would parliament feel obliged to proceed with leaving the EU?

By the way, the fact that many clubs, unions and other institutions require more than a simple majority for change indicates that a referendum for any constitutional change in our relationship with the EU should at least have some minimal figure for the turnout, if not for the necessry size of the majority, for any result for change to be accepted by the government.

From June 18th: The answer is that technically MPs could block an EU exit – but it would be seen as political suicide to go against the will of the people as expressed in a referendum.

Within a few days it will be political suicide /not/ to go against the will of the people. Look at that counter: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Or the 20 year olds who haven’t lived long enough to understand how to live, nevermind consequences.
The point of a referendum, is that generally there is not enough of a consensus for the government to decide – but a decision needs to be made.
If people don’t vote, then they don’t care enough about it and are saying they don’t want a say in the future of the country.
It’s the same argument about Unions and striking.
Frankly if the turnout is low, there is nothing that could be done – other than making voting mandatory, which isn’t exactly a great idea either.
There are many financial and serious disasters “around the corner”, none of which can be predicted.

< rant >
Frankly the only disaster that was predictable was the massive crash that ensued after the government of the time allowed multiple massive mergers (Halifax & BoS was the start).
The various protests were overruled, kept very quiet and brushed under the carpet, largely because the government arrogantly thought they knew more about economics than everyone else, combined with massive borrowing, nearly bankrupted the economy.
But all the blame is now left with the banks.
< / rant >

Slightly back on track, given the current state, we have to start implementing the exit no matter what, anything else would be a sham of the referendum.
However if there was a new general election and a referendum called immediately, the outcome (either way) would be further uncertainty.
Predicting the future is a tricky business.
It all boils down to lies, damned lies and statistics. Blend that with politians who always have (for good or bad) an ulterior motive and it’s the perfect storm of bull****.

It’s a real shame that the talk of reforming the EU has only come after this, perhaps if the UK was taken seriously by the EU commissioners we wouldn’t be in this position. Which I really wish we weren’t.
But they are another story! It’s the equivalent of having the House of Lords running the UK government, whoever thought that (EU commisioners) were a good idea was clearly mad.

There was an interesting interview on the Sunday Politics show with some MEPS and MPS. They didn’t recognise or know who any of the EU commissioners were. That says a lot when the people who are supposed to be running the country and the people who represent us in the EU don’t even know who runs the EU.

That says a lot when the people who are supposed to be running the country and the people who represent us in the EU don’t even know who runs the EU.

OK, anyone recognise the people who run the UK?

NB. An old comment I first heard from my father was the old gem that “it doesn’t matter who you vote for, the government always gets in”

OK, anyone recognise the people who run the UK?

Isn’t the devil supposed to recognise his own?

Just hitting refresh and watching those numbers grow.

Just hitting refresh and watching those numbers grow.

Tens of thousands per hour. If it were kilometers, you would be on Mars in a mo.

As one who voted to Remain I none the less have a real issue with this petition and some comments about the numbers and ages of the voters.

Lets face it every political vote over the past years could be questioned on the basis of turn out and voter age profiles.

I really wish we had not voted the way we did but there seems some elitism from those in the metropolitian classes that some how their votes should be considered more than those of a lesser class and that really why we are where we are in that those grass roots voices were not listened to before the vote took place.

Just as the SNP galvanised that vote in their independance campaign, the Leave campaign did so as well in this one.

Having said all that I have a sneaking feeling that we may have a vote on the proposals of any new arrangement with europe and access to its markets.

I predict 2 million before 6:30 (19:30 CEST).

I find it rather funny that the pro-Leave people are going on and on about how this is a great win for democracy.

Many people in other European countries would love to be able to vote about such far-reaching decisions. The very fact that you were able to vote is a great win for democracy. Only the fact that there is a vote on anything motivates a debate. Look at Switzerland for a good example. Debate is important to inform the public about all the facts about the topic of vote.

Frankly, the reactions after this result are shocking to me. There is very little respect for the voters from the other side. I wish more people understand that there can be valid reasons to vote one way or the other. No matter if the voter is 85 or 18. And yes, it is still a democratic vote even if the result disagrees with you.

I predict 2 million before 6:30 (19:30 CEST).

2,000,253 signatures at 19.21 cest: you won!

2,000,253 signatures at 19.21 cest: you won!

If only!

I wish more people understand that there can be valid reasons to vote one way or the other.

Ah, but read this: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/what-brexit-mean-shopping-petrol-8277931

Tell me – which of these many brexit promises are coming true? I think it is valid for nearly half the country to be annoyed at the other half who got suckered in to voting based upon lies that were obvious lies but played to their prejudices.

Good point? This might help modernise and reform the EU as a whole.
It’s hard to imagine how this will help “little England” though, especially when Scotland packs up their porridge and walks away.

2m is still less than the number who voted to Leave or Remain in which 32m took part.

There is really some sort of political and obscene moral high ground posturing going on with those who disagree with what was a legimate vote.

As Steffen said there are lots of others who wished they had the opportunity to vote on their issues as we did.

The time to have made a difference with all of this was when the canvassing was going on and not after the event.

I am shocked that today I have heard a small number of MP’s saying that this petition and a MP’s vote may be used as a reason to change things as after all it the vote has no legal binding. What arrogance that some how if you don’t agree you can set aside a legal vote.

I have even seen things mentioned that those who voted to Leave some how did not understand what they were voting about, unlike the educated Remainer’s from the big cities.

This sort of attitude and past behaviours of the elected and ruling class I am sure contributed to many on the leave side making the most to give them a tap on the nose.

If some of those who like me voted to Remain can’t accept the result then why should some one who voted to Leave accept any attempts to overturn a legitimate vote. If that is the case then we are on a slippery slope to anarchy.

As to broken promises then did anyone really think a Tory led government was going to use the supposed £350m savings for the NHS or anything else obviously some did but untruths abounded from both sides.

The other real shame is that immigration was used a means to win by some in this vote and the real benefit of the contributions they make was lost like those who set up businesses and help contribute to our vibrant country and ensure we have the highest levels of employment ever.

2m is still less than the number who voted to Leave or Remain in which 32m took part.

Yes – 30 million less for now – but what if it becomes more substantial?
At what level would you consider it enough to trigger a rematch?

Ah, but read this: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/what-brexit-mean-shopping-petrol-8277931

I read a lot of speculation, the bottom line seems to be: if there is a recession, we will be less well-off than before. I prices for some things will rise, we will have less money for other things. If the value of the pound drops, we will pay more for imports. Great predictions! Who could have thought of this.

Articles like that help no one and carry less factual information than a Microsoft advertisment. Britain has to get their act together and look forward and try to take advantage of getting out of the ridiculous overregulation that plagues the EU. There are a lot of opportunities now for Britain, you just have to go for them.

I am shocked that today I have heard a small number of MP’s saying that this petition and a MP’s vote may be used…

Isn’t it the way your democracy works? Your MP’s, directly elected by the British people, have the final word. It’s their responsability to keep the ministers on the right track. It is a very useful procedure, it prevents the government from madness.

John

No amount of petition numbers should be used to give a rematch as that arguement has been had and it was lost for those of us who wished to remain.

In life we all have things happen that we wish we could overturn but we should have the backbone to accept that a decision has been made even if we disagree with it.

What we can influence now is what sort of deal we may have and in that respect a petition for that would be better in my opinion. As I said before I have a sneaky feeling something will be on the table in the future be it a similar type vote or one based on a normal election with the political parties trying to become the new government based on they type of deal they wish us to accept.