I/O

Peter

Normally yes things work this way but they abdicated their responsibilities on this occasion to us the people and said it was for the people to decide and just because the people haven’t given the answer they thought they would then it should not mean they invalidate it as that is the way to anarchy and for eveyone to say well I’ll just ignore that law as I don’t accept it.

If they had said we just want your opinion then that is a differnet story but they didn’t.

As Steffen said there are lots of others who wished they had the opportunity to vote on their issues as we did.

Indeed there are. Like the 700,000 British ex-pats who were denied a vote. Like the 16 and 17 year olds of the UK who were denied a vote.

The time to have made a difference with all of this was when the canvassing was going on and not after the event.

Well, we know:

• The Leave campaign lied. Now they tell everybody that the £350M figure was a fantasy. Now they say that they probably can’t do anything about immigration if they intend to keep trading with the EU. Now they mention that farmers will lose their EU subsidy and, well, there’s nothing in mind to replace that. Now is too late, is it not?
• The Remain campaign were pathetic. While we had multiple official and unofficial Leave campaigns, they were all more or less giving the same message. Remain couldn’t figure out what their message was or who should give it.

I am shocked that today I have heard a small number of MP’s saying that this petition and a MP’s vote may be used as a reason to change things as after all it the vote has no legal binding. What arrogance that some how if you don’t agree you can set aside a legal vote.

It is a legal vote, yes. But it was not a binding vote. That was known since before the referendum took place. Perhaps the only way out is indeed to hold a second referendum, as this madness over a >4% majority of a non-binding result… I mean, the benefit of a win for Remain is that no big changes were in store. A win for Brexit, however, changes everything and such a small margin with large numbers of the populace denied a vote – sure, it is democracy in action to have a referendum, but how about we give every UK citizen over the age of majority (16+) the right to vote… Then we can talk about democracy.
As it stands, this is being decided by approximately 34% of the electorate.

I have even seen things mentioned that those who voted to Leave some how did not understand what they were voting about, unlike the educated Remainer’s from the big cities.

I don’t know whether it was on the radio or an online paper, but earlier today mom called out to me a quote from an older person who said that “Britain never would have won the second world war if they were a part of the EU”. There is so much of this post-war dreaming by older people that the amount of nonsense in that statement hasn’t even occurred to her.

I’m sure it is possible to cherry-pick stupidity on either side of the debate; however those who believed in the many things that the Leave campaign stated that could be proven to be untrue before the referendum and are being admitted to now; yes, I do wonder if the majority of Brexiteers really understood the issues. They complain that Juncker isn’t an elected official (and right now he really ought to keep his gob shut). They complain about Brussels stealing their sovereignty while not being able to tell the European Parliament from the European Commission (or the European Court or the Council of Europe or…).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html
They thought it was some sort of protest vote and they wouldn’t really have to leave the EU? Didn’t they read the ballot paper?

This sort of attitude and past behaviours of the elected and ruling class I am sure contributed to many on the leave side making the most to give them a tap on the nose.

Indeed. But while it is okay to say “stuff you” to the Tories because nobody likes Cameron, at what cost?

Oh, yes. In order to continue trading with the EU, Britain (or maybe England) will need to comply with all of the applicable EU rules and regulations. Rules and regulations that Britain/England will cease to have any say in. How’s that precious sovereignty working now?

If some of those who like me voted to Remain can’t accept the result

It seems as if some Brexit voters are having difficulty accepting the result, too.

then why should some one who voted to Leave accept any attempts to overturn a legitimate vote.

Legitimate, yes. But not binding. Parliament could legitimately overturn this. I would be surprised if they do, but they could. As could the Lords.

As to broken promises then did anyone really think a Tory led government was going to use the supposed £350m savings for the NHS or anything else obviously some did but untruths abounded from both sides.

You are missing the point. The are no £350m savings. It’s a figure essentially plucked out of somebody’s backside.

The other real shame is that immigration was used a means to win by some in this vote and the real benefit of the contributions they make was lost like those who set up businesses and help contribute to our vibrant country and ensure we have the highest levels of employment ever.

Indeed. And while you may be content to accept the result as it stands, I would ask – vibrant country? highest levels of employment? That’s now. But tomorrow is now unknown.
Already America has stated that Britain/England is going to have to go to the back of the queue and won’t get preferential treatment. You may get special consideration from Trump, should he become President, but it will likely come with the string attached of signing TTIP. If you’re so worried about the NHS and precious sovereignty you really ought to read the leaked text of the TTIP, it makes the EU look like junior first formers in comparison.
Already the EU has made it clear that Britain/England is going to get no special treatment from them either. They can be like Norway and be a sort-of member, but that basically means being in the EU without actually being in the EU.
I keep on saying “Britain/England” as it is uncertain at this stage if Scotland will break apart. The Scottish leadership seem rather determined to remain active members of the EU, and why shouldn’t they, given their preference was to remain by a large majority. If they separate, Northern Ireland may follow suit if they can (the idea of Sinn Fein talking about reunification (even if Stormont is less interested) seems incredible to me). That’ll leave what, of the vibrant country that Britain once was?

It may be that I am wrong and the right leadership can take Britain to new and exciting places. But short of actually starting a war with somebody and winning it, I really don’t see how this is going to go. I’ll agree that there are parts of the EU that are pretty crappy and a lot of the institution is behaving like a lumbering dinosaur, but even so I can see a lot of good that the EU has done for its member countries and their citizens. To leave… I think I spent yesterday going through the five stages of mourning. Denial when I heard the result. Anger when it became clear what it meant (along with a sort of weird sick feeling). I missed bargaining because there is nothing to bargain with. Depression, I force fed myself in McDonalds as I had no appetite whatsoever. And finally acceptance. I accept what is happening, and even as I hope and pray everybody will come to their senses and not bungee-jump off the cliff, I accept that my future may be uncertain but less and less do I see England being a part of it.
I have happy memories of my childhood in England, boarding school was fun even though it was more like “if…” than “Mallory Towers”. I grew up with eighties music which rocked (lame pun intended). I look at what is going on now, and sorry. I may only have been out of the UK for fourteen years, but I don’t think I recognise the country any more.

Like the 16 and 17 year olds of the UK who were denied a vote.

What is the standard voting age in Britain? 16 or 18?

This is my last post on this subject as I am saddened by both the vote result and the unseemly dialogue, no matter how well intentioned it is ,that it is some how not legal or binding.

We all knew the rules and who was able to vote just as we did for a normal election and to some how try and unlegitimise it is frankly as I said before not right. Rules are not always fair to all but as long as they are clear then we all know where we stand and they should be challanged before hand not when a result comes along that you don’t agree with.

Also on numbers where do you draw the line in a national election there have been candidates who have won by 1 or 2 votes in our first past the past system and governments in power with fewer votes than the ones that ended up in opposition but that is the system and we know about the rules. Numereous attempts have been made to change it but to no avail but that is the system and we accept it warts and all as we are in a democracy and we accept it’s rules for better or worse or descend in to anarchy.

I’ve not missed the point about the £350m savings as I said supposed before it and that was a clue that I thought it was not a real figure.

Equally on immigration you could take the jadded view that it was a set up as we can control the Non EU bit but we seemingly didn’t before the vote and they also released population figures on the day of the vote showing a 500K rise over the past year. Conspiracy fantatists could link this and say it was a fix to help leave but where do you stop.

TTIP and other things are the issues we now have to ensure are sort as a result of this, in my opinion , wrong result and so is the type of country we wish to see going forward but as someone who believes in democracy I accept the result howver it grates.

You make valid points Rick about a Norway type deal as it is all the current rules about free movement and trade as well as a contribution to do so as well but without any influence to change the EU laws or direction.

Equally we may be less vibrant and in my opinion diversity wise poorer but again we need to just get on with it and make the best of the hand that we have been dealt.

Anyway this whole debate just proves that RISCOS and politics don’t mix :-) as least as far as I’m concerned.

Already America has stated that Britain/England is going to have to go to the back of the queue and won’t get preferential treatment.

IIRC, it was Obama who stated that, in an obvious attempt to influence British voters towards “Remain”. But Obama won’t be in power when Britain will negotiate a free trade treaty with the USA. The EU on the other hand will either have to live with the ultra complex/insane/whatever TTIP, or won’t have a sensible free trade treaty at all.

As you see, another opportunity for Britain to get a better deal outside the EU. That’s not to say that it will happen for certain.

But lest not forget it was a Labour government that helped the dismantling of the NHS in a way the Tories never could have. Ah! Politics it’s great how people forget.

As for the American trade deal. It’s taken the EU how many years to not get a deal?

RISC OS referendum…

Blue or green folders?

Pimoroni has pi zeros available at the moment, The pound is down in value, go for it!

I may only have been out of the UK for fourteen years, but I don’t think I recognise the country any more.

When I came back it took a while to get used to the money – coins; they’d changed the design whilst I was away in quite a radical way, and I really had to concentrate!

Petition approaching 3 million rapidly. Makes me think of how the word “phenomenal” is usually misused; this really is a phenomenon!

Pimoroni has pi zeros available at the moment

I ordered mine on June 10th, dispatched on 13th. Still not arrived. Is this normal? Postage only cost £4, do they send it 2nd class or something?

I ordered mine on June 10th, dispatched on 13th. Still not arrived. Is this normal? Postage only cost £4, do they send it 2nd class or something?

From the comments of a friend¹ last Saturday² the stock pretty much vapourises so actually having something dispatched is an achievement.
I’d email a question about when they thought it would arrive.

¹ He gets his stuff delivered by what he refers to as sneakermail. Usually a drop off on his mates way home.
² We were all in Warwick for a meeting. In a pub, well more than one.

that it is some how not legal or binding

It never was binding. Now that the result is in, it is being treated as binding.

@Ronald May: ‘’Pimoroni has pi zeros available at the moment, The pound is down in value, go for it!’’ Thank you, finally i could order a Pi Zero now. Before, it was sold out everywhere i tried.

It never was binding.

Exactly. And now the result is known, Cameron (who utterly misjudged this) has left because he knows all hell will break loose if they try to overrule this (despite all hell likely breaking loose of article 50 is signed). Farage somehow considers a crashing economy, potential break up of the union, necessity to follow other people’s rules, and utter failure to come through with just about every pledge given to be a giant WIN for democracy. And Boris looks like he is trying to find positive things to day while his face says “oh crap”.

What the two houses will have to do on Monday is see if there is any way they could not go ahead with this that won’t start a geriatric riot. Because while some brexiteers are still cheering and some remainers are apathetically just saying “accept the result”, at some point the government (or what is left of it) is going to need to do what is in the best interests of the country regardless of whether or not the people agree. Yes, it was a legitimate vote even if the journey there was anything but. However the UK has just been downgraded which means the global economy is suffering to something like 2 trillion today, never mind the UK’s future debt issues.

This technically non binding referendum democratically held is rapidly turning into an existential threat to the United Kingdom. Things will change, that is certain. However things may not be changing in a way that citizens wanted or hoped for.

What the two houses will have to do on Monday is see if there is any way they could not go ahead with this that won’t start a geriatric riot.

Hide their zimmer frames :)

Yes, it was a legitimate vote even if the journey there was anything but.

If the NHS stuff from Brexit was a lie, as has been said, then surely any vote taken and influenced by that is null and void? Curious.

I was going to stay out of this but the above comments really just sum up what is all wrong with this situation.

Firstly to insult some of us because we accept the result sums up an arrogance by some that got us in to this sad and divisive position in the first place. I wonder if some you would be some complaining if the result was the other way by a similar or less margin.

Accepting a result doesn’t mean you are any less passionate about the fact it is wrong.

If some had taken the correct steps to ensure the disenfranchised in the UK were listened to then Vote leave would not have been able to convince masses of them to vote based on a divisive agenda that the Leave campaign used to blame those who are different for their troubles.

It may be suggested it is not binding but that reflects a political naivety on those who believe it as MP’s will not vote against it as they already high level of mistrust amongst the population.

I’m sure that we will get a second stab at things but not because of this misguided petition but because we will have a number of unpalatable options to accept and the political class will want a get out of jail card to say well you choose this option when it all goes pear shaped.

We all knew the rules and who was able to vote just as we did for a normal election and to some how try and unlegitimise it is frankly as I said before not right. Rules are not always fair to all but as long as they are clear then we all know where we stand and they should be challanged before hand not when a result comes along that you don’t agree with.

I think it’s worth pointing out, because it’s not clear from the UK.gov page, that the petition was apparently started a while before the referendum. In fact, if the Mirror(?) is to be believed, the petitioner was pro-Leave.

It’s been picked up afterwards by signatories as a way of making their feelings known, but that’s not the original petitioner’s fault.

Petition approaching 3 million rapidly. Makes me think of how the word “phenomenal” is usually misused; this really is a phenomenon!

It’s meaningless until it tops 20-odd million.

I think it’s worth pointing out, because it’s not clear from the UK.gov page, that the petition was apparently started a while before the referendum.

It is clear:

Deadline
25 November 2016
All petitions run for 6 months

which means it was started 25th May 2016.

In fact, if the Mirror(?) is to be believed, the petitioner was pro-Leave.

The phenomenon I was referring to was the fact that at my last count, 65028 individuals per hour are signing this petition, though the rate is slowing down. Remarkable take-up whether you agree or disagree, or believe it may have some effect or not.

It’s meaningless until it tops 20-odd million.

That may or may not prove to be the case.

We all knew the rules and who was able to vote just as we did for a normal election …

And the rules were that it was not a binding referendum. No one can make it legally binding after the event, although political pressure may make it so in reality.

The petition is of no consequence in itself, and there are a lot of dubious signatures, but it might sway some politicians to act on their consciences for the benefit of the nation, rather than their self-interest.

I do find it interesting that the petition was intended to trigger a further referendum because the leave camp feared a remain victory, and that Farage claimed a 52/48 remain win would not be the end of the business. I just want to turn that around the other way. It is not much use acting by some set of ‘fair rules’ if your opponent is not doing the same.

Accepting a result doesn’t mean you are any less passionate about the fact it is wrong.

If you passionately feel it is wrong, wouldn’t it be better to look at options for more positive outcome? There is nothing wrong with acceptance, but this idea of “oh well, what’s done is done” just seems like giving in to some predetermined inevitability.

Remarkable take-up whether you agree or disagree, or believe it may have some effect or not.

I believe that there’s this thing called Social Media, which I’m told that all the hip young things are apparently in to, your honour.

I believe that there’s this thing called Social Media, which I’m told that all the hip young things are apparently in to, your honour.

I don’t believe that even the man with the dog in the deer park was getting over 1000 hits a minute!

which means it was started 25th May 2016.

Actually it was created at 23h39.38 UTC on the 23rd of May, and was opened on the 25th of May.
The information was last updated on the 26th June (does this reset the timer?) at 12h25UTC. The 10,000 threshold was reached in May prior to the open time apparently. The second threshold was reached just before 7am UTC on the 24th June.

12 signatures from Afghanistan, 1 from Bhutan. Nearly 13k from Oz, 20.5K from France. 24k from north Korea (!).

For all this information, click on the data (json format) link.

Accepting a result doesn’t mean you are any less passionate about the fact it is wrong.

Suppose you’re on the road an you met a T junction. You turned right (just right, not political) and after a while you saw it’s the wrong direction. Now a small referendum starts: What would you do? Go on or return?

One of the arts of life is to make things not more complicated then they are.

If it was after awhile, then sure. But just after you turned? A referendum every other day?
Calling for a referendum when we’ve just had one is purely sour grapes.
Keep having referendums until you get the result you want isn’t democracy, it’s anachy.
Especially as it should be left at least a year, by which time things will have settled down a lot.
Now if Junker gets fired, which he should IMHO and there is a general election – things could be different.
Ignoring a referendum, means essentially all should be ignored.
If we call another one and that one goes towards remain, then there is a call for a further one – then surely there has to be another ad infinitum.
So I would agree, one of the arts of life is not to make things more complicated. The decision was made.

Rick the acceptance is of that particular battle and not an acceptance of what becomes the next one.

As I said we now have to get on and deal with the hand we have been dealt with.

As I keep saying I’m sure we will get some sort of chance to vote again either a do you accept option a or b type or at a general election where there could be a choice berween proposals from different parties.

The sad thing is this could have been avoided if those who started the campaign actual stood up and realised the ground swell of opinion that was brewing and dealt with the social and economic issues that some have exploited to obtain their victory.

Now I think I’m turning in to a politician as I’ve broken my promise not to say anything else on this matter so before I do so this is my last post on this matter ..trust me I’m a …