May you live in interesting times

…um.

A work colleague said “even the Americans couldn’t be that stupid”

I said that according to an American couple that worked the GBBF regularly “there’s an awful lot of stupid in the ‘flyover zone’”
When I asked they confirmed that the flyover zone was the part of the USA between the east and west coast.

Someone reposted a comment from Reddit, which was something to the effect of “If I knew that Trump was actually going to win then I wouldn’t have voted for him.”

Someone reposted a comment from Reddit, which was something to the effect of “If I knew that Trump was actually going to win then I wouldn’t have voted for him.”

Now that reminds me of something else …

In my despair I recall the final phrases of Francis Cabrel’s Assis Sur Le Rebord Du Monde

… Dieu et sa barbe blonde
Dieu qui s’est assis sur le rebord du monde
Et qui pleure de le voir tel qu’il est !

French punctuation, and not my preferred method of title capitalisation, mais, ça y est.

Yes it does remind you of something else in that the same comments were made against those that voted for Brexit in that they were some how lesser beings of low intellegence.

The real issue here , as in Brexit, is the failure to engage and confront head on the issues that drove many to vote the way they have in main stream politics in many locations in the world of late.

If we don’t all wake up collectively and look at why people feel disenfranchised rather than dismissing them then there are very dark days ahead with an almost 1930’s undertone taking shape and that should worry us all.

Actually, the real issue here is the way people are deceived about the causes of the problems they have. I’ve been well aware that people feel ignored, neglected, left to struggle, etc. But given the way the press hide the real reasons and propagandise for the sake of the (non-dom tax-dodging) owners and their ‘blind’ companies ex-UK, its mushroom farm.

those that voted for Brexit in that they were some how lesser beings of low intellegence.

Well, they pretty much are.

I understand that there are problems in the world. However from Trump’s oft quoted rhetoric on foreigners and the rest of the world to Farage wanting to organise a huge march because established rule of law is “inconvenient”; these are people who are using lies, deception, and careful doses of fear to push through their agenda.
These people – they are extremists. Extremists with public approval.
I can forsee extremely dark days ahead. Congratulations retards.

Doomed! We’re all doomed!

Given The Donald will have The Button, maybe a mushroom cloud would be more appropriate?

But, yes, DOOMED! WE’RE ALL DOOMED! ;-)

Rick , Well that attitude is really helpful and frankly shows why us remainers lost as we collectively failed to address the real issues because some had similar contempt for the others and tried and justify it to with a percieved and false intellectual moral statement.

A certain party in the 1930’s classed certain people in a sub human group and let others prey upon their fears. Hopefully we have learnt our lessons but we need to be grown up and understand why people hold certain views and what drives them so it can be tackled rather than just dismiss them as not as intelligent as to do so makes us equally guilty.

Jim, yes agree things are more complex and you are right the press plays its part but so do parts of society that try to stiffle debate in the hope the issue goes away but it just ends up giving more air to those with darker objectives. I wish we were more grown up in society to debate things but we are all guilty if we let those who denegrate people or groups that are different win as equally we are if we don’t challange those who try and stifle the legitimate debate in other ways.

Joking aside, after a period of feeling quite upset about the EU I have returned to my somewhat indifferent view of politics so the Trump issue does not seem such a suprise. It will indeed be “interesting times” if Trump does some of the things he (or the media) has claimed and interesting too for us who live in the UK…but I think it will generally come down to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer accompanied by an erosion of the welfare state. Chances are the Senate will block and mediate his policies anyway…just as the UK Parliament and EU politicians will have years of talking over things and ultimately the majority of people will move onto something newer and more exciting by the time anything actually happens…isn’t that the point of a mature political system…talk and talk and talk until only those who are really interested are left at the table…

Hilary or Trump, EU politicians or UK politicians…does it really matter or are they all fundamentally corrupt and ineffective?

I think we are moving toward a world where nations are less important anyway and large corporations will ultimately hold the power – but maybe that just my own small paranoid view?

The only thing I know for certain is that I hold very different views to the majority of people…I mean don’t we all here…or why would we be using RISC OS when most of the rest of the world doesn’t even know what it is?

I guess what surprises me is how political this forum can be sometimes!

(I’d rather just get on with writing some code and let the world sort itself out)

I agree that the notion of the state seems to be at risk which depending on your views could be a good or bad thing. One thing for certain is that the 2008 crash and deals like TITP/CETA just show how really powerful global business is and it is much more difficult for individuals /collectives to stand up to a global entity without a global political concenus. Domination of whole peoples/societies has moved from a state /monarchy /empire arrangement to one based on business.

On a lighter note and one more in keeping with the RISC OS community, ok lets forget ROL/ROOL/Green/Blue/4,5,6 squabbles, at least the Simpsons got it right in 2000 when they aired the Bart to the Future episode with Trump as the president. Don’t you just love the irony of it all.

Green/Blue .. squabbles

I presume you are referring to the Nika riots of 523AD? Justinian was a nasty piece of work, if the Secret Histories of Procopius are to be believed.

Rick, Well that attitude is really helpful

What would you like? Group hug and singing Kumbaya? Ain’t gonna happen.

and frankly shows why us remainers lost as we collectively failed to address the real issues

Not even slightly. Some might have shown contempt before the referendum, but most rational people know that you don’t get anybody to agree with a point of view by insults.

The remain campaign lost, pure and simple, because it was a crap campaign.

The Leave campaign spoon-fed the people a procession of easy to remember mantras and nuggets of pure bollocks. Turkey joining the EU? £350 million per week for the NHS? When did the Leave campaign make any effort to respond to that rubbish, repeated again and again?
David Cameron put in an extremely lacklustre effort, probably because he actually thought he wouldn’t lose, and didn’t do much of anything as the lies kept on getting repeated over and over. Another one I remember, dire predictions of Merkel Replaced Within Days (that was months ago, she’s still running Germany last I checked).

What little was said in defence of the EU was quickly called “scare mongering” (another simple mantra). It doesn’t matter what was said or when, it was “Project Fear” and “scare mongering”. I actually heard interviews on Radio Four where valid points about relations with other European trade partners was replied to with “You’re just scare mongering”, like the sort of argument response you might except from a five year old.

You’ll notice they don’t say that one any more. Because the projections of the sky caving in was based upon signing Article 50 right away, and that hasn’t happened. More specifically it hasn’t happened, yet a fifth has been whacked off of the country’s economy. There’s now a budget deficit somewhat larger than those unwanted payments to the EU. So the predictions are coming true, just slower.
So enter another mantra – that of the common man being screwed over by “the elite”.

because some had similar contempt for the others and tried and justify it to with a percieved and false intellectual moral statement.

Perceived? The word I want to use to describe the entire Leave campaign is a word too rude to write here. It is a colloquial term for bovine excrement. In fact, please point me to something the Leave campaign said that was actually truthful?

A certain party in the 1930’s classed certain people in a sub human group and let others prey upon their fears.

Indeed. Hitler (if you don’t want to say it, I will) as a fledgling politician pointed his finger at a group of people and blamed them for all of the ills afflicting the country. Much as UKIP is pointing the finger at foreigners. These charlatans (from Hitler to Farage) are not interested in making things better. They just want a platform that people will believe in enough to give them power.

but we need to be grown up and understand why people hold certain views

Please explain, in a rational way, why somebody would choose to believe something demonstrated to be false? Please explain, in a rational way, why somebody would want to make threats against judges who remind the new (unelected) executive that there is a way laws are made in the country? Please explain, in a rational way, what anybody actually thought they were voting for in the first place?

That final question is key. You see, the UK could fulfil the promise and “leave the EU” tomorrow and choose instead to become an EFTA state. But this is no good. The Leave campaign’s two major points were investing all of the EU payments in the NHS, and controlling immigration. Simply leaving the EU will not change that. Being in EFTA is like being in EU Lite.
The UK must pretty much leave Europe entirely and try to negotiate deals with countries one by one. If they are interested, that is. Did you notice that one of the first topics raised by the Indians was that of immigration? Don’t you think other countries will have similar requests?

Or, to put it another way – how the hell could the electorate know what Brexit means when it looks like the government doesn’t entirely know what Brexit means. This, of course, covered over by another cute mantra: Brexit is Brexit.

and what drives them so it can be tackled

Simple. Their lives suck and they mean nothing. It is blunt and painful, but the problem is right there. Upcoming and developing countries are just cheaper. Work goes there. The not so well educated poor and low income people just keep getting screwed over. This was a change to “stick it to the man”, but like most such things, it’ll eventually end up with them getting hurt the most. If Article 50 is signed, what do you think is going to happen to inflation? When do you think public sector workers will next get a pay rise? How much is the government going to have to mess with the Cost Of Living index in order to gloss over the price hikes (that are already starting)?

One needs look no further than Apple for an insight into things. The company has crafted this entire image around itself. It designs “awesomeness” in California, and then has them made out of mediocre components by cheap labour in China, to then sell at a premium. You aren’t buying a tablet, you’re buying an iPad. You aren’t buying a phone, you’re buying an iPhone. And so on. The company gets rich. The Asian workers get peanuts. And you, for having a status symbol, pay twice what an equivalent model from somewhere else would cost.
[okay, as this is a tech forum I can acknowledge that Android is not iOS; but both do the same sorts of things and you can do the same sorts of things with a variety of add-on apps]

That’s like a microcosm of the world in general. The old world countries are becoming less and less relevant in the scheme of things. The developing countries are learning to do their own R&D, make their own stuff, and find their own way in the world without us (Europe/US) telling them what to do. And they’re also doing a good line in making stuff for us, because getting stuff made in China is just so much cheaper and less troublesome than getting it made in Guildford (UK) or Wisconsin (US). The prices won’t go down, the guys at the top will just have more profit to share amongst themselves.

Leonard Cohen: The poor stay poor, the rich get richer. That’s how it goes. Everybody knows.

Case in point, by the way, who owns ARM now? It’s no longer a British success story, is it?

rather than just dismiss them as not as intelligent as to do so makes us equally guilty.

There comes a time when you just have to say “man, you’re stupid” to somebody. The final straw for me was after the first ruling in favour of MPs voting on Brexit (as is supposed to be the correct way), the reactions from the Brexiteers, and how for all their bleating about “democracy”, they would be happy to push for an autocracy so long as it gives them what they think they want.

I’m sure there are some who had good reasons for distrusting the EU, but the vocal majority that are interviewed endlessly on radio (especially those up in Sunderland) are complete morons. No more mollycoddling. They are on a path that stands to make changes to the country that could possibly take generations to fix. For what? For money that never existed and the fun of kicking out foreigners? Is that worth the risks?
Yes, there is something wrong with the world.
Yes, the EU has flaws.
But is running away the way to fix things, when that isn’t even going to come anywhere near fixing the real issue? It’s a gigantic distraction.

parts of society that try to stiffle debate in the hope the issue goes away

Isn’t that what Leave has been doing damn-near constantly? Scream, shout, throw around idiotic slogans, dismiss any part of any debate that is more complicated than “Us. Out. Now.”?

For the avoidance of doubt: I am a British citizen. I live in France. I do not imagine this mess, once Art.50 is signed, will really start to be felt within Britain until sometime around 2022ish when the subsidies have gone (2019) and the money pot runs out. However, as an ex-pat, it pretty much risks ending my life here. Will I have the right to continue working here? Will I even have the right to continue living here? Nobody knows yet, and it is going to be such an almighty balls up that I would rather pin my hopes on the EU making magical rabbits than the UK, who – and read this carefully – decided that I didn’t even have a say in this stupidity.
Yup. You read that right. A British citizen, living in Europe, so will be more or less directly affected by Brexit, had neither voice nor representation. That’s your democracy for you, right there. Place that on par with one of the countries of the UK voting very strongly to remain in every single county, yet likely being dragged out anyway as the English make more noise.

And, for what it is worth, I would not vote in favour of the EU purely out of self interest but because I actually think the concept of the EU is a good thing, although the implementation needs a bit lot of tweaking. I believe that when faced with the world, grouping together makes a group with more power and clout than one reasonably unimportant little island that used to be something a couple of hundred years ago.
And, finally, because there wasn’t one single thing Leave said that made sense.

Chances are the Senate will block and mediate his policies anyway…

I believe Obama’s main problem was the Republicans held a majority in the Senate. This means that Trump will be able to get stuff done, and I’m rather expecting Obamacare to evaporate faster than the morning dew.

I presume you are referring to the Nika riots of 523AD?

ROTFLMAO – win!

The real issue here , as in Brexit, is the failure to engage and confront head on the issues that drove many to vote the way they have in main stream politics in many locations in the world of late.

and no one (well very few) in the USA was capable of understanding it wasn’t actually an either/or contest?

… we collectively failed to address the real issues because some had similar contempt for the others and tried and justify it to with a percieved and false intellectual moral statement.

The real issues are, like almost all problems, multi-layered.
The upper and most obvious layer is that most, if not all, politicians are self serving and often liars. Despite having the lies pointed out to them many of the electorate repeat the mistake of believing the person who has demonstrably lied.
Perhaps if we had a law that automatically disqualified such people from holding any political office, but here we hit the first instance of the “turkeys will not vote for christmas”
Pretend you have that out of the way, what then?

that I would rather pin my hopes on the EU making magical rabbits

And, arriving right on cue, a magical rabbit: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-freedom-of-movement-passport-how-to-keep-parliament-live-move-abroad-a7405196.html

A little something of interest on “Brexit” here:
Brexit and the Last Great Injustice
http://www.sharetherents.org/articles/brexit-last-great-injustice/

A British citizen, living in Europe, so will be more or less directly affected by Brexit, had neither voice nor representation.

I’m curious about the reason for that. I have a couple of British colleagues that have lived here in NZ for a decade and I believe that they were both eligible to vote. May I ask why you weren’t?

Rick

Agree the remain campaign sucked and really did not give a positive view of things but then again overturning 40 years of the Common market/EU is the root cause of all evil mantra from certain parties and popular press was always going to make it hard. Equally branding any menaingful discussion about how to positively tackle the impact of migration , which in my view is postive, with cries of racism for just bring up the point does not help move things forward. We needed to sort out things like housing/health and schooling impacts and do it so all have access to the improvements but then again a certain governement stopped the funding for that a while back…It often makes me smile when in the same breath as decrying those “immigrants” some people then go on the say how they look forward to moving to Spain/France to live, no doubt to live in a area with lots of other brits and they can’t see the issue with their arguement.

It is a complex point of discussion as I said in a later post but perhaps I am naive and think that engaging in debate is better than trying to silence disent that only leads to it going underground and help those who say give the elite a bashing when they are part of that same elite and are using it for their own ends.

Finally one other thing we can also agree on there is lots of dicussion to take place before brexit and no doubt dual citizenship may be one, as you beat me to pointing out that article, with similar rights for those EU citizens who are in the uk.

And, arriving right on cue, a magical rabbit: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-freedom-of-movement-passport-how-to-keep-parliament-live-move-abroad-a7405196.html

Oh, the bit in that from “Brexit campaigners” is priceless.
It seems that unless they can force everyone in the UK to lose freedom of movement they won’t be happy. What’s their problem? Don’t they want anyone to have access to the benefits?
Or don’t they want 90% of the population (including people that voted Leave) to demonstrate that they didn’t actually want to leave, just protest a bit.

Steve – that bit from the Brexit campaigners makes my blood boil. Now can people see why I use a word like “retard”? They are selfish, and terrified that while they are in the act of running away with the ball, somebody somewhere might be getting something they are not.
Here’s an idea. The 48% and anybody in the EU at the time of the referendum can continue being an EU citizen. The Brexiteers lose that. Well, what’s the problem guys? It isn’t as if any of them will want anything to do with the EU…?

Chris – it’s been rather more than ten years.

Doug – there’s a woman living nearby (typical Brexiteer demographic) who said that if she could vote in the French elections, she’d vote for Marine Le Pen. You know, the person running the National Front that, upon winning, would probably say “thanks for voting for me dumbass, now get out” (well, in French of course)!
She goes on and on about “damn foreigners” and several unpleasant names for Muslims, while being a “damn (utterly-refuses-to-speak-a-word-of-French) foreigner” herself.
Kinda leaves one speechless. Sometimes I wonder if she even really understands…this isn’t England!

The problem with dual nationality is that, previous birthright aside (as is the case for a lot of Irish/German citizenship), it is a long and complicated process. Moreso when English documents need official translation, notary stamps, triplicate, and all of the other wonderfully convoluted things that bored beaurocrats can dream up.
Oh, and some countries (Spain?) do not accept dual nationality.

Another one I remember, dire predictions of Merkel Replaced Within Days (that was months ago, she’s still running Germany last I checked).

Most of Germany would probably see that as a very hopeful and promising but unrealistic prediction and in no way “dire”.

Here’s an idea. The 48% and anybody in the EU at the time of the referendum can continue being an EU citizen. The Brexiteers lose that.

Nah, couldn’t work. You see a lot of the “Brexiteers” would probably lie about which way they voted so that they could maintain their right of access to the EU stuff they like. Remember most of them only wanted to protest, I mean it’s not like it was a real vote to really leave was it?