BREXIT and others

To keep the non-RO stuff where it more properly belongs:

If only there was a more positive tone to the discussions about all the positive things the EU brings then it might just have been different.

Can anyone think of an item that the Leave campaign used that was actually true?
Much low content verbiage and quite a few notable lies, but truth… Hmmm

I personally struggle to think of a negative aspect of EU membership.

So, as a 2016 contest, Brexit and Trump – Lies 2-0 Truth

I have always reckoned that England’s weakest point (but not that of the other parts of the union, necessarily) has been a philistine anti-intellectualism. It cuts across all classes and has been around for a good while. Where did it come from? Was it fear that France’s revolution might be exported here? John Bull used to pride himself that he was a pragmatist, not given to fancy theorizing. What that actually means is a reluctance to face problems until they have happened. There was a time when some houses built near the south coast had no south-facing windows, for fear that the plague could enter from the continent. A plague of reason I would welcome.

I have always reckoned that England’s weakest point (but not that of the other parts of the union, necessarily) has been a philistine anti-intellectualism.

Historically it was troops from north of the border that did much of the unpleasant stuff in places like India. Part of the British army but…
The Welsh tend to be a bit xenophobic and just about tolerate the English because we look similar. So no-ones back yard is clean.

IKWYM with the anti-intellectuallism. The moment you demonstrate more working brain cells than average you’re a target.

A plague of reason I would welcome.

No chance of a strain that kills off the low hanging fruit I suppose.

So where is the positive discussion in all of this then?

All I can see is some sort of moral posturing which is what got us in this situation.

So here is one for starters:

I can work and live in any EU country I like.
Yes that means you that have a villa in Spain, Portugal etc :-)

The Welsh tend to be a bit xenophobic and just about tolerate the English because we look similar. So no-ones back yard is clean.

Speaking as a Londoner currently living in Wales… Your slip’s showing.

Can anyone think of an item that the Leave campaign used that was actually true?

Perhaps the one about the fish? (Not £100 billion pounds worth I expect.)

I personally struggle to think of a negative aspect of EU membership.

Having to listen to Farage complain about it.

So where is the positive discussion in all of this then?

A couple you haven’t mentioned:

Imports/Exports with all our local (and major) trade partners is easier and there are no tarrif barriers (but there will be in due course)

Phone voice/data roaming charges ceiling – pushed by the EU when the UK government showed no interest.

All I can see is some sort of morale posturing

“morale” ==> confidence, enthusiasm
“moral” ==> virtuous, good, righteous, upright, upstanding, high-minded…

pedant ==> a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning. :-)

which is what got us in this situation.

No, what got us in this situation is people lying and others letting them get away with it. Meanwhile people believed the lies. Money for the NHS? admitted as bull within hours of the result.

As I said earlier, can anyone recall anything from the Leave campaign that was true? It’s important.

Speaking as a Londoner currently living in Wales… Your slip’s showing

A friend from Uni was Welsh. While he was a friend I found some of his views to be on the limit of my tolerance. Various visits to the valley/mountainside home village allowed me to observe the larger group in action – much the same.

Elsewhere in Wales visiting and discovering speaking, as habit, in English and switching to Welsh when a stranger came near.

It takes all sorts, and it doesn’t hold true for everyone throughout Wales but as I said no ones back yard is clean.

I personally struggle to think of a negative aspect of EU membership.

Having to listen to Farage complain about it.

Well apart from the existence of the TV remote control there isn’t much we can do about him. Apparently the US style ‘excuse’ that “he needed shooting” doesn’t carry any weight in the courts.
Maybe we could set him and Trump up in a residence on Rockall? Unless the birds object.

pedant ==> a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.

Noted and amended just goes to show we can all learn to correct mistakes :-)

Pity Osborne and co didn’t learn the mistakes they made from the Scottish referendum and tried the same Chicken Little strategy.

Here is another positive:

Common consumer law and anti competitive behaviour

Common consumer law and anti competitive behavour behavior

You reminded me – tax.

While the consequences of the legislation requiring tax to be paid in the country of the client in the business transaction you get two things:

1. Lots of small businesses unhappy about having to deal with the system even though they barely register in the financial scheme of things
2. Large companies having to pay tax¹ to the countries where their clients are rather than in some tax haven.

Bit difficult for a multinational to avoid the whole of Europe as a trade area so coughing up becomes more likely.

¹ Assuming our tax boys bother chasing them and not allowing codswallop ‘loophole’ excuses for not paying.

All I can see is some sort of morale posturing

Sorry. Have you read the papers? The mob rule that got us all into this mess whinging about how they won’t tolerate higher prices, want this, don’t want that, blah blah.

Meanwhile the government just throws out another stupid mantra – a red white and blue brexit. What the hell is that supposed to mean? That the UK is going to cede to France?

Nearly six months have passed and I still don’t know a bloody thing more than I did the day after brexit. What will happen regarding my job? My life here? Nobody knows, not because the EU are evil but because nobody trusts May not to use us all as bargaining chips.
So you can consider my views on brexiteers fall somewhere between antagonistic and words I shouldn’t write here. If this upsets somebody, well this may have just buggered up my life so I’m sure they’ll know where they can insert their objections…

It takes all sorts, and it doesn’t hold true for everyone throughout Wales but as I said no ones back yard is clean.

You can apply that kind of viewpoint to all sorts of ‘foreigners’. Ever been to Kettering? There’s folk around those surrounds that still refer to ‘blackies’. I guess that’s England catalogued.

Not quite sure if you’re referring to Wales specifically as a back yard.

Ever been to Kettering?

Once or twice, bit strange. Lived for a while in Northamptonshire (Towcester) but I think its worn off now :)

There’s folk around those surrounds that still refer to ‘blackies’. I guess that’s England catalogued.

Nine miles to Corby, one of the biggest collections of Scots accents you’ll find in England. Many interesting views on furriners round those parts.

Not quite sure if you’re referring to Wales specifically as a back yard.

What?
Oh, I see.
Colloqialism referring to making sure your own business is above reproach (or not)

You reminded me – tax.

1/ The dead loss of VAT – http://www.landvaluetax.org/the-lvtc-blog-by-henry-law/the-dead-loss-of-vat.html

2/ “The right to trade freely is a natural right. It conflicts with no other right and requires no compulsion. At all times and places the natural impulse to exchange goods and services to mutual advantage has tended to form a peaceful bond between individuals and nations, to stimulate intelligence and to promote prosperity. Governments have always denied this right, usually succeeding in persuading people to believe that the infinite series of exchanges can be directed by officialdom, using restrictions, penalties and taxes, national treaties and alliances, better than by leaving trade to the individuals concerned.”

3/ IEA gloriously wrong on corporation tax
http://tinyurl.com/zo7k3p6

…and then there’s farm subsidies: http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/

Meanwhile the government just throws out another stupid mantra – a red white and blue brexit. What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Well, I’m personally looking forward to this – then I’m sure everything will be absolutely clear. ;)

The dead loss of VAT

Ah yes, ‘the EU saddled us with VAT’ as though it was anything other than a rebranding of purchase tax which the UK had had for years (since 1940 on ‘luxury’ items)

IEA gloriously wrong on corporation tax

Neither corporation tax nor VAT work as they should. VAT is a means of passing the tax burden down the line to the little man.

The truth is that to get large corporations and ‘the rich’ paying tax properly you have to revise the system such that there are no exemptions, no allowances, but you do need a cap on standard tax rate income¹. Beyond the one twist you take every monetary unit of gross income and tax it, starting at zero.

and then there’s farm subsidies

Isn’t that the subsidy where the farmers are worried that they will be in financial deep doodoo when it goes and the UK gov is suggesting they will cover it for a while? What’s that, you thought we were giving it away to furriners?

¹ Contentious I know but beyond the cap taxation should be 100%
That should provide some amusement watching a footballer or banker whinge.

What will happen regarding my job? My life here? Nobody knows, not because the EU are evil but because nobody trusts May not to use us all as bargaining chips.

“As EU national, you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence in another EU country if you have lived legally there for at least 5 years continuously.

You can then apply for a permanent residence document, which confirms your rights to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions."
Source

Of course that assumes “without any conditions” isn’t trumped by your Country ceasing to be in the EU.

If it is and a Hard Brexit happens, then Brits’ situation will depend on the EU and the country they are in. If the EU offers an associate citizenship system (or a lifetime residency/work visa) then all will be fine. (for you) If not then it would be down to the country in question to decide whether you can stay. (And unless you become a citizen, I don’t think you would have any rights to live or work in the rest of the EU.)

I’m pretty sure the EU will offer some sort of easy continuation of access to the 48% because if they do and the UK doesn’t reciprocate (which would make a Hard Brexit pointless) it would make the UK look bad, but more importantly make it far easier for all the multinationals HQs data centres, banks and service businesses to relocate to remain within the EU.

I think the red, white and blue Brexit means we lose 30% of our economy to France.

The best comment I read about Brexit:

We can have our cake and eat it.

I have eaten it.

I still have it, it is in my stomach.

Yes, but it is rapidly turning to …

If the EU offers an associate citizenship system (or a lifetime residency/work visa) then all will be fine. (for you)

I wonder, would that offer be open to all EU citizens who were affected by the Brexit (that’s home and away).
Of course if more than 50% of the population applies for the status then the feline is amongst the avians (family Columbidae).

Steve:

Beyond the one twist you take every monetary unit of gross income and tax it, starting at zero.

Steve – you probably won’t have a coherent discussion on taxation with Stewart. He appears to be a believer in the idea that all forms of taxation can be done away with and replaced by a “ground rent”, a quaintly Marxist idea that suffers a total disconnect between income and land ownership. It’s a great way of extracting tax from the wealthy and their castles, but starts to fail when applied to farmers, never mind individual home owners. It also fails to take into account “value” in transactions and creations (in other words – commerce).

The current system, taxation on earnings and purchases, is not a bad idea, per se. The problem is that there are many little loopholes that can be abused by the wealthy to make their tax obligation disappear. The sort of creative accountancy that can give a company a turnover in hundreds of millions with a profit of maybe a few tens of thousands (hence very little tax). Once those loopholes can be stamped upon, then the system might start to work better.

And, oh look, the EU is trying to harmonise European tax regimes for exactly that reason – to remove the loopholes. And suddenly we uncover the reason why the rags such as the Telegraph and everything News International were strongly anti-EU and pro-Brexit. It has sweet sod-all to do with patriotism or what’s right for Britain (the two old blokes that own the Telegraph and Murdoch all live elsewhere (Sark & US). It’s simply that they have £££££ and they want to keep it all as far away from the tax man as possible. The EU is looking to sort out taxation loopholes, therefore the EU is bad.
And all you clever Brexiteers were totally taken for fools.

Jess:

Of course that assumes “without any conditions” isn’t trumped by your Country ceasing to be in the EU.

We know about this, and we are going to apply for it. The problem is, it is intended for and applies to EU citizens. When we cease to be EU citizens, then the rules that apply to EU citizens will no longer apply.
The general view of English speaking media in France is do not assume such residency permits will have any value whatsoever when the UK formally leaves the EU.

Which is in itself interesting given that the supposed human rights might have a fair bit to say about wholesale removal of rights of a person denied the ability to even have a vote in the proceedings.

I’m pretty sure the EU will offer some sort of easy continuation of access to the 48%

It’s already been raised (associate membership), and the Mob Rule shouted loudly about a two-tier society (obviously they were too stupid to recognise the people looking for German/Irish ancestry to keep their EU status intact).

I think the red, white and blue Brexit means we lose 30% of our economy to France.

Well, given the losses already incurred before anything has happened… one might want to take the warning signs seriously.

If it is and a Hard Brexit happens, then Brits’ situation will depend on the EU and the country they are in.

Given May’s treatment at the EU – the bit where she had herself as company – I think the message is pretty clear. It’s no Brexit or it is hard Brexit. There is no in between that doesn’t undermine the entire principle of what the EU represents. One doesn’t get to cherry-pick the best parts and, to be extremely blunt, the UK is nowhere near as important as it thinks it is. Have you noticed that the EU countries have pretty much given up trying to talk sense into May’s government? I bet they already have a contingency plan on how to handle the UK leaving. They’re wanting article 50 signed so that the long boring negotiation process can begin, but all the government is doing is coming up with idiotic mantras.
It is also worth noting that the buffoon has quietened down.

The only logical solution to all of this is to back away, call off Brexit, and pledge to try to help with the much-needed reformation of the EU from within. Problem is there are a lot of stupid people who think they have “control” that have absolutely no idea how much the whole thing is going to spin “out of control” once article 50 is signed.
I don’t envy May. I hate her with a passion, but I don’t envy her. She’s got to choose between calling off Brexit and a potential civil war when the numpties have the Express pointing that out in simple words; or leaving the EU and something that may, in the long run, hurt the country even more.

There was a guy, back when, who found a silent section of the population and blamed all the horrible things that befell the working man upon those people. We all know the result of that, it’s about the only stereotypical demographic that is wide open for mockery and derision. Yet, despite the lessons we were supposed to learn from those events and the damage it did to entire countries, here we see the same rubbish being regurgitated once again…

Speaking of civil war – has anybody considered what exactly is going to happen if a million or so ex-pats, many of them retired folk, return to the UK with… let’s see, their money will be minimal (as the property market will crash if there’s an exodus), they probably won’t have anywhere to go and their hopes and dreams will have been trashed. Oh, and having been out of the country for “too long”, they won’t qualify for a lot of things despite being British citizens.

but more importantly make it far easier for all the multinationals HQs data centres, banks and service businesses to relocate to remain within the EU.

Something that is coming up more and more often on the comments of The Register is that European companies working with British firms are cancelling, declining to renew, or rejecting the British companies. Why? Brexit. Or rather, nobody knows what the situation is going to be, so there’s no way in hell a sensible European company is going to sign any form of contract with a British company without some idea of what the future holds.
It goes likewise for education (university grants, joint research programmes, Erasmus, etc).

The effects of this are going to be so much greater than simply “controlling immigration” and “stop pouring non-existent cash into the EU”.

Been trying to keep out of this, but some of this is in danger of being an echo-chamber. As with any vote, both sides told lies. I thought the most obvious ones are those from Cameron/Remain: the emergency budget etc.

The EU are not the driving force behind reduced roaming charges. That is propaganda. Even if they were, does that justify over control of your country to an unelected super power? I can’t think of anything that does, but maybe I just need help here. Suggestions? As someone else said, the remain side did not offer any positives. Why not tell us about the joy of a future United States of Europe, or the Euro?

A fraction of our businesses trade outside of the UK, and only a proportion of that is with the EU. The rest of the world is huge, and growing compared to the EU. To cap it off, the trade deficit means that the Germans need to sell us a lot more than we sell them. We should be trading with the world, allowing the third world to trade out of poverty, not subsidising French farmers.

I agree that the Tories are making a mess of it! Again, Cameron is to blame. No plan, apart from immediate Article 50. But he resigned instead. May just needs to leave. No ‘deals’ are needed at all.

On the residency issue, it is not May stalling, but the EU. And people lived and worked around Europe before the EU!

Oh, and the EU insist that VAT is a one way street, and they are gemerally behind rises and application to more products. Cameron couldn’t have removed it from tampons.

The common tax regulations are just part of one budget/currency, and are presumably implemented for the largest amount of lobbying. That is why mega-corps love the EU.

And all you clever Brexiteers were totally taken for fools.

Perhaps that’s better

It has sweet sod-all to do with patriotism or what’s right for Britain … It’s simply that they have £££££ and they want to keep it all as far away from the tax man as possible

Good rule in any scam like this: follow the money. Always tells you what’s really going on.

Best thing I can see about Europe, among a lot of younger people at least, is that it doesn’t matter if you’re British, Italian, Slovakian, whatever. As far as they’re concerned, those barriers have gone. They’re happy to live in Berlin or Bristol, chat (on the net, of course) with someone from Krakow or Cordoba. For them, borders no longer exist; the barriers of nationalism no longer exist. Sovereignty? Some kind of antiquated notion that deserves to be consigned to the dustbin of history. Really important issue: climate change.

Rick

The current system, taxation on earnings and purchases, is not a bad idea, per se.

You notice I didn’t mention scrapping it, just scrap all the exemptions.
No loopholes folks, just cough up.

Richard

A fraction of our businesses trade outside of the UK, and only a proportion of that is with the EU. The rest of the world is huge, and growing compared to the EU.

Hmmm, true but misleading.
Everything is a fraction, in this case between 4 and 5 out of 10 (otherwise known as over 40%).

The rest of the world is huge, and growing compared to the EU.

Edited for you.

Both corrections are from a pro-brexit source (Telegraph) and matched by neutral sources.

We should be trading with the world, allowing the third world to trade out of poverty, not subsidising French British farmers.

Or would you prefer British and French in there? I believe one of the big French complaints is how much subsidy money the Brits soak up.

Good rule in any scam like this: follow the money. Always tells you what’s really going on.

snip.

Really important issue: climate change.

Indeed, but you see if you think about the money you have to admit there’s no profit in caring about icecaps melting and a collection of poor people getting flooded out.