BREXIT and others

Rick, I sympathise with your position regarding your own status. But I think the British government have stated that they do not use to wish to use people like yourself as pawns in the game. My understanding is that the EU (perhaps Junker) is the one refusing to commit.

I think the delay is a disgrace. It is not at all what Cameron promised. The good news for the Remainers is that the establishment will delay and manufacture bad news (e.g. lower interest rates and print lots of pounds) and the end result will be so watered-down that it’s pointless.

For what it’s worth, I thought both campaigns were poor, and don’t expect much from our pro-Remain government.

I accept that many people now don’t view Europe as a different world. But isn’t this down to package holidays and super-cheap air travel? Not a path towards a single government?! Being out of the EU will not stop holiday or business travel/relocation.

The good news for the Remainers is that the establishment will delay and manufacture bad news (e.g. lower interest rates and print lots of pounds) and the end result will be so watered-down that it’s pointless.

So the good news is that there isn’t any good news? You’re not lining up for a political position by any chance are you?

For what it’s worth, I thought both campaigns were poor, and don’t expect much from our pro-Remain government.

Typical news reports, never any facts. I could have sworn that the cabinet had been formed with pre-Leave people.

I accept that many people now don’t view Europe as a different world. But isn’t this down to package holidays and super-cheap air travel?

Nah that was around for quite a while, the change is what used to be known as “the global village” – they’ve probably got another label now.
Electronic communication means we converse with others in diverse locations with such familiarity that the other person could be living within walking distance or on the other side of the planet.

I’ve used the word before: Xenophobia. The Remainers don’t have it with regard to Europeans and don’t really understand it because they are Europeans so there is no difference to fear.

it still leaves aside the central point.

Which is?

taxation on land only fails utterly in todays world

http://tinyurl.com/jnzpy4d – nos. 4 + 5
and also
http://tinyurl.com/zxxmggv

All the suggestions, like Marxism, fail for two reasons:

Strawman

1. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas

Almost everyone would be better off.
http://tinyurl.com/jacknvk

I’ve used the word before: Xenophobia. The Remainers don’t have it with regard to Europeans and don’t really understand it because they are Europeans so there is no difference to fear.

A very broad sweeping statement and implication there as would you say the for instance the Scottish/ East Europeans/Catalonians are Xenophobic because they wish to have there own right to determine things.

As I have said before much as I regret the outcome of the vote I don’t assume all that voted out had that view and it certainly doesn’t help bring a nation together to continually peddle these statements and others about mental capacity just as Remainer’s are labelled Remoaners by some. This polarisation of views of Brexiters/Remainers can’t be allowed to fester and grow and the press does have a lot to do with it as it stokes up fears and division and we should rise above it.

I think I will leave this discussion to others as I thought the RISC OS community would be be more forgiving of others views. I ’ll stick to the other forums in future.

Which is?

My naff punctuation clearly confused you, try this:

…still leaves aside the central point:
The simple fact that taxation on land only fails utterly in todays world.

I repeat the earlier statement about the likelihood of change when the people with the power to change stand to lose:
1. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas

BTW. Do any of your references come back to anything recent that isn’t someones blog, wiki articles of dubious content or gutter press fluff?

The actual question asked (Leaving the EU) was not xenophobic. However the leave campaign was and the interpretation of the results is.

Basically a soft brexit is purely about where laws come from.

Hard brexit is all about chucking out foreigners despite the fact that it is guaranteed to decimate our economy. (at the very best).

Scottish independence would not have been Xenophobic, because they would have stayed in the EU, meaning no-one would be chucked out or barred entry. In fact it was the FUD that they would be chucked out that probably swayed it.

And anyone who thinks that the referendum was about anything other than the Tory Party’s political position is pretty naive. It was a win-win situation for them. I think the result they were playing for was a narrow remain so they could carry on whining about how unfair our deal was, despite it being about the best in the EU. But the result they got is still good for them. Especially if they go for a Hard Brexit.

The two years leading up to a hard brexit will be boom years. UK based EU HQs and data centres will be relocated, UK HQs and data centres will need to be set up. (Given 40% of the largest multinationals have UK based EU HQs, and we only make up 12% or so of the total population, this will be a big net loss). Tourists will make use of their final chance of a no hassle visit and the low value pound. EU companies will stock up on inventory. This will take us quite neatly to the next election. (Especially if they manage to manufacture a delay to the article 50 schedule) The UKIP will have no point, so the Tories will regain their votes. The Mail and Express will be trumpeting the boom, and how Brexit was right. The Tories will get re-elected.

Of course once the economy drops off a cliff once we are out they will quite honestly point out they warned of the consequences and that we made it perfectly clear that we were not afraid to face them.

And of course during any period of depression, some people always make a mint. I wonder whose best friends that will be.

…still leaves aside the central point:
The simple fact that taxation on land only fails utterly in todays world.

That has been answered; see above.

I repeat the earlier statement about the likelihood of change when the people with the power to change stand to lose:

True of chattel slavery too?

1. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas

That also has been answered; see above.

Do any of your references come back to anything recent that isn’t someones blog, wiki articles of dubious content or gutter press fluff?

Point out the Wiki refs will you – and also the “gutter press fluff”?
Anyway, what diff. does it make – what’s true is true, regardless of who espouses it.

That also has been answered; see above.

Actually you didn’t. You demonstrated that you just didn’t understand the reference.

True of chattel slavery too?

Just when did Wilberforce own slaves? He was somebody with power (he went to school with Pitt the younger among other things) but he didn’t stand to lose anything.

I think that qualifies as a non-sequitur.

Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas = those with the power and benefits won’t give up what they have.

Point out the Wiki refs will you – and also the “gutter press fluff”?

You mean you don’t follow the trail of references in your references?

Close to triggering Dowdies Law here.

But I think the British government have stated that they do not use to wish to use people like yourself as pawns in the game. My understanding is that the EU (perhaps Junker) is the one refusing to commit.

This is the British media creating a European bogeyman. If Mrs. May really felt like that, she should simply come forward and outright guarantee rights for EU citizens in the UK at the time article 50 is signed (not the date of the referendum, that’s an arbitrary date). Then she should expect her European counterparts to do likewise, putting the onus on to them to step up.

As it is, Mrs. May is being about as vague as it is possible to be, managing to say a lot while actually saying nothing. She’s said a hundred times “Brexit is Brexit”, but can anybody reading this forum explain what that actually means?
European counterparts aren’t quite so willing to trust the British government, given that the one they are used to talking to fell in a matter of days, and was replaced by this who-knows-what that gave the job of Foreign Secretary to the weird bloke that used to mock them all a little less cruelly than Farage was known to do. I kind of have to agree, I wouldn’t trust the current government either.

and don’t expect much from our pro-Remain government.

This is a pro-Remain government? Let’s see if that holds when MPs get to vote on going ahead with Brexit. Given how some of the papers have been carrying on, I bet many will bottle it and “go with the flow”.

But isn’t this down to package holidays and super-cheap air travel?

Not at all. I view territorial issues as arbitrary pieces of land claimed as “mine” by like minded people for the purpose of differentiating themselves.
Let’s face it. If I took myself to the Alsace and walked across the border into Germany, there is no technical difference between this piece of land and that piece of land. If I found a place in a bunch of fields where there was no clear demarcation of one country from the other, it wouldn’t be obvious. Countries are invented concepts. That isn’t to say that they are bad – Germans have a German culture, language, and way of looking at the world. Just as French do, and Italians, and all the rest of us. But while we should recognise and understand this delineation of territory, we should also not be overly bound by it. That’s what Schengen was all about. I Spanish person can travel through France to work as a brickie in Germany, for instance. A German can travel through France to holiday in a hotel on a quiet costa with enough deck chairs to go round. ;-)

Not a path towards a single government?!

Harmonising is not the same as a single government. The aim of the EU is to make many of the rules the same in each member state, so you know that what goes in your country will be what goes in the rest of the EU. That’s what the idea is.

Look at it like this. My preferred licence is the EUPL, and I have had people (mostly Americans) saying that there’s no point in bothering with the Spanish (etc) versions, it’s the English one that carries legal weight, isn’t it? Well, actually, NO. They are all legally equally valid. In German, in Polish, in Greek, in English. They’re ALL IDENTICAL. There is no fallback to the “licence prime” written, conveniently, in English. For the EUPL, English is just one of the licence language options. That is pretty much the entire point in a microcosm.

Being out of the EU will not stop holiday or business travel/relocation.

Yeah, it kind of will.
British citizens may need some sort of Visa in order to travel to an EU country. Depending on how this is arranged, there may be an EU-wide visa, or there may be one visa necessary for each country visited.

Business travel and relocation comes in two forms. The golden handshake form for the well off, they probably won’t see much change.
And then there’s the arrangements for everybody else. And, yeah, stay in a country will be limited and work permits will be practically impossible to obtain.

Take a look at the rules and regulations that apply to Americans visiting Europe, and the EU “Blue card” scheme in order to see how this could go.

A very broad sweeping statement and implication there

Really? It’s true though. The final week of the Brexit campaign ditched the money to the NHS and concentrated entirely on two key concepts – regaining control, and immigration.
This intermingled with Farage’s pictorial hatred of Muslims – that queue of migrants, cleverly blurring the lines between legal migrants from other EU countries, and all those others. Especially Muslims. Make no mistake, the strong implication given by the official Leave.EU campaign (as opposed to Farage) that Turkey was imminently joining the EU was exactly this. Xenophobia, fear, and barely-contained racism.

certainly doesn’t help bring a nation together

Hahaha. If one goes to a work Christmas party and trashes the tree, urinates in the wine, and punches the boss in the face…the solution is not “GROUP HUG!”.

Ever considered that maybe the nation doesn’t WANT to come together? There are two extremely different points of view here, and one of them risks severely damaging the future of the entire country and its population.
Think I’m being a bit over the top? If so, you clearly haven’t taken the time to think about exactly what is about to be lost.

about mental capacity

They believed Farage. They believed £350M – even when it was pointed out that this was fictitious. They believed Turkey was about to join the EU. And for God’s sake, the “loss” of The Great British Bake Off made more headlines than anything EU-related all year, Brexit notwithstanding.
I’m going to say that approximately 50% of the voters were utter retards. I’ll leave 2% for the ones who had a brain and decided not to use it.

As I said on my blog (or was it here? or both?), the government could fulfil the referendum obligation fairly painlessly tomorrow. They could quit the EU and become a part of ETFA.
But this won’t happen – not because that would be dumb (the UK’s position is much stronger in the EU than EFTA), but because this was never really about the EU. It’s about kicking out foreigners. And here we’re right back to xenophobia and please, before replying, do yourself a favour and take a look at the past week or two of the British newspaper of your choice.

I thought the RISC OS community would be be more forgiving of others views.

Homosexuality? No problem. Gender swap? No problem. English not first language? No problem. Prefer coffee over tea? No problem. Eat fois gras? No problem. Pray to <Deity$Name>? No problem.

Take away what I see as my birthright (I was born a European) and possibly trash my future simply to appease some clueless delusions – VERY EFFING BIG PROBLEM.

And, the last bit for Stewart:

Anyway, what diff. does it make – what’s true is true, regardless of who espouses it.

Two words: Daily. Express. (and the fact that there are people who consider it to be a genuine newspaper)

Two more words: Climate. Change.

And there is me thinking we could have stated all the positives the EU brings and we quickly ran out of ideas.

OK, here are my ideas on some of the important good stuff that the EU gives us (or offered us):

Freedom. I don’t understand why so little was made of this in the run-up to the referendum. Normally, ask people how important freedom is, and they’ll tell you it’s one of the things that’s so important that lots of people are willing to die fighting for it. Well, being part of the EU gave us the most enormous freedom to live anywhere in the EU, and be treated very much like a native of that country. I think that’s very important, and I very much regret that we’re about to give it up.

Regulation. The good unelected bureaucrats of Brussels enacted lots of regulations to ensure that products are made safe (thus saving lives), the environment is constantly improved (so that we aren’t killed or made ill by pollution), and that it is no more expensive to do business anywhere in the EU (harmonising postal charges and telephone charges), among other good things. The unelected bureaucrats of Whitehall just seem to sit on their arses, claim fat salaries and pensions, and produce no results. I’d rather be regulated by Brussels than Whitehall. My life might depend on it.

A strong currency. This is one that we were offered but were too stupid to take. Being part of the Euro would have removed the tax that the money-changers levy on transactions between us and mainland Europe, and would have made business easier by removing pricing uncertainty. Recent events have amply demonstrated what a weak currency Sterling is. The Euro hasn’t moved much at all, despite all the “crises” that we’ve seen recently.

I agree with you viewpoint Rick, although I would say Brexit is not about kicking out foreigners, it’s about regaining the votes of those who want to kick them out. (There is also the side effect of getting rid of all sorts of rules that niggle the tories, minimum wages, personal rights etc)

I also wouldn’t go quite as far as the 50% retards comment. Gullible, racist or with their own agenda. People believed the lies (and some still do) either due to extreme gullibility or xenophobia. People accepted statements that were they about British (rather than Jonny Foreigner) would have been questioned. Some people actually used it as a protest vote (I think your comment is justified for them). Others were gullible enough to believe that the question would be honoured and they would get the Norway model, rather than an exit from anything with the word Europe in it.

But this has divided the country, I will never forgive it if I lose my right to live and work on the mainland, before I’ve even been able to use it. In fact if we get a hard brexit and Scottish independence, then I will be moving north.

you just didn’t understand the reference.

What was said was:
1/ “taxation on land only fails utterly in todays world”
…which was answered by:
http://tinyurl.com/jnzpy4d – nos. 4 + 5
and also
http://tinyurl.com/zxxmggv

and:
2/ Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas
with a later expansion to: those with the power and benefits won’t give up what they have.
(tho’ this is hardly an equivalence, especially since turkeys don’t have much/any power over their fate)

This was answered (tho’ you seemingly missed the relevance) by:
Almost everyone would be better off.
http://tinyurl.com/jacknvk

Just when did Wilberforce own slaves?…

Arguing from the particular to the general – eh!?
(Aside: there are several MPs who support LVT.)
Altho’ probably this is an irrelevance, since support for LVT is likely to come from the ground up (maybe after the next land price driven crash in 2025/26).

you don’t follow the trail of references in your references?

Usually, not ultimately, no – do you?

And one for Rick:

Climate. Change.

http://renegadeecologist.blogspot.co.uk/
http://tinyurl.com/hab6b3d
http://tinyurl.com/zj993uf
http://tinyurl.com/gsyajq3
http://economicrealities.site88.net/natcap.htm

http://tinyurl.com/zj993uf

Just so you know – I don’t usually follow links where their location is intentionally obscured.

Yep. You’ve missed the relevance, no matter how simply put. I think this was as simple as it can get:

Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas = those with the power and benefits won’t give up what they have.

Just when did Wilberforce own slaves?…

Arguing from the particular to the general – eh!?

I pointed out that I believed the slavery reference to be a non-sequitur (an emotional loaded one at that) and the Wilberforce reference was to the fact that it wasn’t the people with an interest in keeping slavery that were instrumental in passing legislation to attempt to rid us of it.

This was answered (tho’ you seemingly missed the relevance) by:
Almost everyone would be better off.
http://tinyurl.com/jacknvk

If Rick is still vaguely interested https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.timalmond.ypp

Self answered reference:

Utter nonsense. Complete fantasy fabrication of calculations magically showing that everybody pays much less tax (except banks who magically will start paying more tax than they make in profit).

you don’t follow the trail of references in your references?

Usually, not ultimately, no – do you?

I follow things until a pattern or fault is established, apparently you don’t “usually”, vaguely or even remotely.

When I was at school they referred to it as “library skills”, these days the popular label seems to be “Google-fu”. I always thought of it as standard research technique to build up a body of information to compare against some other item

Altho’ probably this is an irrelevance, since support for LVT is likely to come from the ground up (maybe after the next land price driven crash in 2025/26)

You’d need a revolution that displaced the current holders and left only sympathisers. I wouldn’t hold my breath.

Rick

Just so you know – I don’t usually follow links where their location is intentionally obscured.

Save you the trouble – blog, blog, blog, campaign¹, campaign²

¹ Mostly history (1600’s – 1700’s)
² Some salient information but badly presented and tending to come across as a rant.

I believed the slavery reference to be a non-sequitur

Well, if you don’t receive the results of your labour (unless you agree to work for nothing) then that is slavery, is it not?

And if you are compelled to part with some of the results of your labour, then, at least, in part, you are a slave.

Well, if you don’t receive the results of your labour (unless you agree to work for nothing) then that is slavery, is it not?

Every August for the last 36 years I have had a break from work during which I work harder physically than the rest of the year¹ combined. I actually pay to do it. The dates in the link are only the public open dates, there’s setup/breakdown as well so it’s actually a fortnight.

And if you are compelled to part with some of the results of your labour, then, at least, in part, you are a slave.

Forgive me if this is not quite right, it’s from memory: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

¹ The rest of the year being occupied working for a large organisation.

Every August for the last 36 years….

Yes, very good, but what has that got to do with it? (BTW: that link doesn’t work)

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Yes, very good, but what has that got to do with it? (BTW: that link doesn’t work)

Would you like to label me as a slave for the period mentioned?
Link amended (copy paste of link appears not to work where the www is missing)

Again, how does that address the point?

You are applying marxist/socialist principles to the concept of work and pay without actually taking in the full philosophy. Cherry-picking.

If you bother looking at the first portion of the slogan it reads “from each according to ability” i.e. those with more ability to contribute do so in a greater amount. Taxing according to income seems to match this rather well (provided no one implements exceptions,rebates, allowances, etc)

I am paid more¹ than various people I know and I therefore contribute more to the tax pot. This seems perfectly equitable to me.

¹ I chose my words carefully here since the likes of Wayne Rooney(and a long list of other “sports personalities”²) get paid far more than me while I would say he actually earns way less.

² Sports personalities are just a nice obvious public facing group, there are many more.

And if you are compelled to part with some of the results of your labour, then, at least, in part, you are a slave.

By your definition, most of us are slaves. Unless you are impressive enough you can command your own wage, the majority of employed people are paid what the employer offers, not what they think they’re worth…

My definition of slave differs from yours and encompasses the basic principle of freedom. And I don’t mean “at work”, I mean in life.

If Rick is still vaguely interested https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.timalmond.ypp

This app is incompatible with your device.

I bet magically my YPP tax obligation would be less regardless of what I entered. Don’t show me an app, show me the calculations and more importantly how the hell the YPP thinks they can create a functioning country¹ with everybody paying less tax. It’s the classic socialist mistake. Taxes, when not abused by idiot politicians to fund pet charities and unwanted computer systems, actually serve a purpose. Do you pay for your children’s education? Do you pay for policing? Some may say yes, the majority say no. So who pays the teachers? Who is paying the NHS staff? Who pays the police?

¹ Not that I’d call the UK a “functioning” anything right now…

It’s the classic socialist mistake. Taxes, when not abused by idiot politicians to fund pet charities and unwanted computer systems, actually serve a purpose.

Hackcherlly the socialist will tax, it’s the other side that want to avoid tax.

Basically tax should fund the welfare. The stupid thing is that the conservatives don’t seem to realise that the mantra of “a healthy workforce¹ is a productive workforce” is actually part of classic management theory.

¹ In this you can include mental health and freedom from worry about elderly/sick/disabled relatives.

Steve,

Obviously you don’t read Steve Bell ;-)).

Regards.

show me … more importantly how the hell the YPP thinks they can create a functioning country with everybody paying less tax.

If you had looked at the YPP (Young Peoples’ Party) website you would have had an answer, in short order!

Obviously you don’t read Steve Bell ;-)).

:)

By your definition, most of us are slaves.

Yes, most of us are slaves – in part.
A/ because we are taxed on our income
and
B/ our purchases are also taxed
C/ a lot of savings are taxed

There is layer upon layer upon layer of taxation upon almost everything, and whole armies of administrators (also financed out of the tax).

Unless you are impressive enough you can command your own wage, the majority of employed people are paid what the employer offers, not what they think they’re worth…

It’s not about what they /think/ they’re worth, but what they are worth. Other than movie stars, soccer players and the like, people generally have no individual bargaining power – that is why they often organise into unions, because, en masse, they carry more weight. Where all land is enclosed, this is the inevitable consequence. The gap between the wealthiest and the poorest is widening and at an increasing rate as more and more of the planet becomes proprietorialised (if you’ll forgive that word). First the land, then the water, next the air? Would you feel that you were free if you had to pay to breathe?