ROOL ROM branding

I’ve added an Obey file to the archive, so it’s easier for people to try it out. To see the effect of the change in sprites you need to force the desktop to redraw after running the Obey file, with F12 & Return.

Martin Bazley wrote:

If the tools are 3D, so windows and menus should be as well.

There’s no reason for them to be the same. One part is the reason for the window’s existence, and the other is for generic desktop window management. Window furniture always looks distinctly different from the window/menu content on every platform I’ve ever seen.

The pseudo 3D effect always only affects a subset of windows anyway. It doesn’t affect the main content area in a DTP package window, the content area of a web browser’s window, or a text editor’s window.

Whether a person likes the pseudo 3D effect (or is used to it and can’t tolerate change :) ) is a personal matter of taste. The proposal of new ToolSprites is unrelated to the pseudo 3D window/menu options anyway.

My own opinion is that the textured windows and menus, and their inconsistently applied pseudo 3D trappings look dated; at best I’d call them quaint. While to me, the flat filled windows look clean and more contemporary.

Well, I’m using the new theme now. I’ve also removed the desktop texture. Currntly it’s a light green, suggested by the original Acorn and the new cog, although it’s a much less saturated shade than that. I’m not sure about the background.

As for the theme: overall I’m happy with it. I would prefer to see the yellow of the titlebar toned down a bit – it looks a bit aggressively yellow to me. Also I don’t see the point of the dots in the middle of the slug bars, though neither do I object to them.

Overall, it has my support.

They’re not in Configure – notoriously. The only way for a user to configure them, as well as several other fully implemented features with no user interface, is Paul Vigay’s MiscSetup Configure plugin. This appears to be written in uncrunched BASIC, so perhaps Andrew Conroy (who I believe is managing Paul’s software) could be persuaded to let us incorporate it into the ROOL source tree?

Even better if someone could incorporate options for these settings into the appropriate area of Configure.

(And yes, I like Michael’s proposed new design very much. I can see the dimples might be a problem for small windows and I don’t really see much advantage in having them, but I should think in practice I wouldn’t mind much!)

They’re not in Configure – notoriously. The only way for a user to configure them, as well as several other fully implemented features with no user interface, is Paul Vigay’s MiscSetup Configure plugin. This appears to be written in uncrunched BASIC, so perhaps Andrew Conroy (who I believe is managing Paul’s software) could be persuaded to let us incorporate it into the ROOL source tree?

Even better if someone could incorporate options for these settings into the appropriate area of Configure.

I’ve no objections if ROOL wish to incorporate Paul’s MiscSetup plugin into the standard disc image, although as Matthew says, maybe the settings should be added into already existing parts of Configure where possible.

The dotted line between menu items also looks very old fashioned.

I much prefer the 3D menus and separators, plus it fits in better with the rest of the design.

The menu separator also has one too many rows of white pixels, although of course that’s a separate issue to new sprites.

All-in-all, I like the clean look, and agree that a modern uncluttered appearance is likely to be preferable to new users. Existing users who prefer the textures etc. can always revert if they wish.

Any news on when 5.18 will be released?

I think it’s measured in days now rather than weeks, there’s probably one more itteration round the test cycle.

I’m not sure if RISC OS 5 has the menu decoration options; I don’t see them in Configure.

They’re not in Configure – notoriously.

I don’t think it’s through any intended malice, but time pressures meant that the functionality got added to the Wimp but the configure plugin not updated. Then, since nobody wants to pay for it, Castle simply did other more valuable work.
If each of the people writing 5 paragraphs each in the 131 posts in this thread each donated £1 per paragraph there’d be £655 sitting waiting to do this work!

The disc image is currently in ‘development’ or beta status, and at some point it ought to get all these rough edges beaten out. For example, it currently overrides the ROM resources with the Iyonix specific ones even if you’re not on an Iyonix – which is wrong.

There is some functionality which may have slipped by (and would similarly be best added to a configure plugin along with 3D border stuff) is that when looking for icon sprites (same for the Toolbox) the filename is first prefixed by <Wimp$Theme> so that applications can carry round several different icon sets which adapt as the theme is changed.

“… configure plugin not updated. Then, since nobody wants to pay for it …”

Should this be added to the bounty list ?

“… configure plugin not updated. Then, since nobody wants to pay for it …”

Should this be added to the bounty list ?

It’s on the roadmap which indirectly feeds the bounty list. The number of ‘collecting’ bounties is, I understand, kept deliberately small so that there’s not 50 open all diluted to such a level that none is triggered.

Has anyone been using those new ToolSprites for a week or so? If you have, what are your thoughts? Some people thought the title bar yellow could be toned down a bit. Is that still the case after having used it a while?

I’m really keen on them. I wasn’t sure at first about the non-embossed tool icons but have started to associate them with the style of the Mac ones, which are headed in the same direction. I’ve been using a plain pinboard coloured RGB: R70.6, G60.4, B40.8. On this monitor it looks good with the highlighted title bar.

I’ve just been catching up on this thread. I’m away from a system to test with but the thing I’d be most interested in is this: getting the whole theme management stuff, including improving the existing !Configure plug-ins, integrated into the standard ROOL disc image. If we could do that, then I’m sure it’d make it easier for people to add new themes or modify existing ones.

I shouldn’t say this, seeing the rainbow ROOL cog was mostly my fault, but I’m not really a fan of the cog icon for RISC OS; I’d much prefer something a bit more artistic/interesting. Even a cartoon character would have more, erm, character!

Frederick Bambrough wrote:

I’m really keen on them. I wasn’t sure at first about the non-embossed tool icons but have started to associate them with the style of the Mac ones, which are headed in the same direction. I’ve been using a plain pinboard coloured RGB: R70.6, G60.4, B40.8. On this monitor it looks good with the highlighted title bar.

Great, thanks for the feedback. :)

Steve Revill wrote:

I’m away from a system to test with but the thing I’d be most interested in is this: getting the whole theme management stuff, including improving the existing !Configure plug-ins, integrated into the standard ROOL disc image.

Yeah, that would be good. We need to ask Chris Wraight, who has made the theme manager. I think he’s done more work on it since the version currently on his web site.

I’m happy with the colour of the yellow title bar – it looks good between the grey buttons that flank it. The only small issue is the scrollbar dots/dimples which stop it shrinking down far enough at times. Maybe they could be rotated 90 degrees and (possibly) turned into a ridge/groove across the scrollbar.

but I’m not really a fan of the cog icon for RISC OS; I’d much prefer something a bit more artistic/interesting. Even a cartoon character would have more, erm, character!

A cartoon kangaROO Ltd.? ;)

Bonzer idea!

Grahame Parish wrote:

I’m happy with the colour of the yellow title bar – it looks good between the grey buttons that flank it.

OK, great.

The only small issue is the scrollbar dots/dimples which stop it shrinking down far enough at times. Maybe they could be rotated 90 degrees and (possibly) turned into a ridge/groove across the scrollbar.

I think it would look a bit cramped if they were rotated. It makes more sense to me for them to be aligned with the scrollbar’s direction of motion, otherwise, it would look like the scrollbar was divided in two for some reason. You could try it by switching the hblip and vblip sprites in the ToolSprites file. I think it would be better to remove the feature, if it’s really a problem though.

On the other hand, the WIMP collapses the other scrollbar features really nicely when you resize a window, reducing the size available to them. (e.g. reduce a NetSurf window right down towards zero height.) Since this is just a normal WIMP scrollbar feature, the scrollbar renderer could be updated to collapse/remove the scrollbar centre “blip” sprites in the same way it smoothly handles the collapsing of other scrollbar furniture. This would be the neatest way of doing it, I think, as it seems odd that its only these scrollbar sprites that don’t get scaled/removed appropriately.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. :)

On the other hand, the WIMP collapses the other scrollbar features really nicely when you resize a window, reducing the size available to them. (e.g. reduce a NetSurf window right down towards zero height.) Since this is just a normal WIMP scrollbar feature, the scrollbar renderer could be updated to collapse/remove the scrollbar centre “blip” sprites in the same way it smoothly handles the collapsing of other scrollbar furniture.

This is what I was thinking – it seems like an oversight/bug that this part of the scrollbar doesn’t squash as the other bits do.

I have to say, I like the dimples on the scrollbars. I think all the Steel-derived themes are great (I’ve been using them for months now), but I think if you removed the dimples you’d be moving beyond “minimalistic” and into “boring”. It’s a fine line! Just personal preference, of course.

I identified a problem in the theme manager that affected RO4/6 and emailed Chris about it with one idea for a possible fix, but I never heard back. If anyone knows how to get in touch with him, please let me know.

Steve Revill wrote:

This is what I was thinking – it seems like an oversight/bug that this part of the scrollbar doesn’t squash as the other bits do.

Cool. Anyone with the necessary skills who’d be able to fix it? :)

WPB wrote:

I have to say, I like the dimples on the scrollbars. I think all the Steel-derived themes are great (I’ve been using them for months now), but I think if you removed the dimples you’d be moving beyond “minimalistic” and into “boring”. It’s a fine line! Just personal preference, of course.

Indeed, I think they give the thing some character in a completely inoffensive manner. :)

“Indeed, I think they give the thing some character in a completely inoffensive manner. :)”

Fashions come and go, Plain lasts longer. I think extras should be left to themes. I downloaded your sample and found the greys are purplish, using the greyscale tool in Private Eye seemed to correct them, otherwise they clash with the existing desktop greys.

thanks, Ron M.

I think it would be good to get Gavin’s !Theme manager as part of the improvements.

The Steele theme is a clean modern look without going to far and as I have said before the dimples add a little touch to the theme without being intrusive.

What ever happens you will always get for and against just look at the debate over the Green/Blue folder changes.

If it is done as part of a fully supported theme manager then people can make a choice and we can move on from a commitee style debate that just mires everything down.

I’ve updated the ToolSprite evaluation archive to set the window outline colour appropriately for the theme. The old standard RISC OS ToolSprites had a black border, but the Sprites’ edges for this theme aren’t quite black, so I’ve set the window outline to dark grey to match.

This is actually pretty useful as it makes it possible to see where the left edge of a black window is, when it’s over another black area. (Overlapping Zap windows, for example.)

Ronald May wrote:

I downloaded your sample and found the greys are purplish

Actually they’re a slight blue-grey, not purple, and it’s very subtle. I think it looks a bit lifeless as flat grey; see the updated download for both the original blue-grey and flat grey versions.

For what it’s worth, I prefer with the blue hint and with the dimples. Each to their own.