Android application to manipulate sd image from the site

His complaint about random junk in “page zero” being accessed from all over the place by random modules – that is absolutely Beeb-style coding.

Because RISC OS was absolutely not, in no way at all, a direct evolution of the hurried reworking of the BBC MOS in ARM assembler that was Arthur. Oh no.

That’s a really specialist problem, and is nothing to do with applications; it was specifically pointed out in Justin’s ramble as an example of the side effects of collusion between modules. Modules that directly depend on stuff inside other modules need to be started in the correct order.

Indeed. See above.

Although it’s not just a legacy Acorn thing: ISTR a recent discussion hereabouts concerning exactly where in the module table the new EDID code needed to be in order for the system to start successfully…

aaa

Yeah well that’s in big part the point of having the system being able to figure dependency chain automatically :)

And that’s here you’ll loose a lot of flexibility. IE the possibility to use a module even if not registered in your application.

Well i’m not saying the microsoft system is flawless, far from it.

Very far. Today, it’s broken. If one application need libx-1, the other libx-2 and a third one libx-1, libx-1 will be present three time on disc (one individual copy for every application), and libx-2 twice. It’s so broken that’s it today more close to static linking. And it’s not really better under Unix. The famous dependency hell.

Anyway, modules are not DLL. There are fix extensions of the system. If you want true DLL, you should use ELF, or another method/container. You should not want to unload a module (and it’s not really made for this: it implies too much memory fragmentation, and if you add a garbage collector, it will become too slow).

RISC OS is today an OS wih statically linked applications. But since it provides a lots of functionalities (and even more with modules), size of executables stay quite small. For example, most SDL ports are smaller under RISC OS than under Linux. And they embed the whole SDL (OK, it’s perhaps not always true with SDL, but definitively with POSIX code).

unless your name is David

Catched :)

aaaa

Loaded ok, but used ? By which application ? what status is it in ? how many instance there are, which application created them, etc. Which application need to be stopped if a module is to be reloaded, which application need an update if a module interface or behavior is to be changed ?

And that’s just the simplest thing that the system can have to figure out.

You have to understand that RISCOS has evolved from Arthur up to what it is now. At no point has there been the sorts of fundamental underlying changes implemented in Windows/Linux to support dynamic driver changes etc. Even Windows didn’t really get that until Vista, prior to that you had to reboot for most things.

CLib is a fine example of how not to implement a Module – but we’re stuck with it as that’s how it was implemented from day one and we’ve all got used to it’s limitations around loading. Essentially once loaded you’re stuck with the one version and it can only be loaded during pre-boot.

I do have some ideas on how to implement local CLib versions, along the lines of Windows .local files but it’s not high on my list at the minute. I’ll tackle it when I add APCS-A support to ADFFS.

As for which app, its status and interdependencies, some of that could be implemented by watching SWI interactions on the SWI handler – you’d only pick up SWI’s actually called though, so without an application pre-declaring what it’s going to use it probably isn’t much use. Again, an XML file along the lines of Windows .local could resolve that fairly easily.

Once you have that, how do you notify an application that a module/interface its using is about to change/move/unload/restart etc? We have Service calls that could cover that and in some instances are already in place – take the sound stack for example.

So, its all possible. However, there’s a big but. Very few applications in the RISCOS world are maintained so any kind of fundamental change of this kind is going to break a lot of software – that’s always been the case due to the age of the OS and even now.

My proposal of a Hypervisor had this kind of issue in mind, the aim being to allow software to run in legacy VMM’s and seamlessly integrate them back to the WIMP. This would get all legacy software running again and allow the sorts of fundamental RISCOS changes being discussed in this thread.

We’re way off topic now, perhaps someone should start a new thread as this discussion is proving constructive. Can an Op move the relevant posts across?

aaaa

It’s not like there is tons of reference, and pointers, and wild jumps all over etc

Errr… I think that’s kind of what he was implying.

collusion
[kuh-loo-zhuh n] (and being British I don’t say it like that)
noun

1. a secret agreement, especially for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; 
2. Law. a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though inagreement:
3. when a RISC OS module uses “secret” knowledge of the inner workings of another to perform actions not necessarily available via the published API.

(source: dictionary.com . . . mostly)

All of this said, as far as I’m concerned it doesn’t matter. As long as the system boots, I can build upon that and leave the OSy stuff to other people more knowledgeable in such things.

this is something i saw too for example :
http://gerph.org/riscos/ramble/miniprojects.html
he already worked on stuff like that, and it doesn’t seem like the basics of it was that hard to make it work.

I have been wondering for some time if English is your first language.

I realise, for instance, that many dyslexics are talented programmers. One only has to look at Help files to see this! But you have puzzled me a lot!

I can’t understand most of what you post, technically, but am surprised at what you type grammatically, and, for me, this interferes with your content.

And, consequently, your verity.

That no-one else has addressed this seems to indicate that you are a capable contributor – but I would like to know why I have formed my possibly-erroneous view of your contribution.

Is your Shift key stuck, are you using a patois, is there a geographic filter we need to apply?

All in the spirit of greater understanding!

aaaa

For me, it all start to make sense

Now, to me, that is a Jamaican constructon!

English: It all starts …

aaa

Now, to me, that is a Jamaican constructon!

I’m not interested in english lesson at the moment or grammar, but if i need to learn more about that, i know who to ask now !

Now, to me, that is a Jamaican constructon!

English: It all starts …

I was wonder how long it would take for someone to bring this up. Please don’t bring English into this, I’ve seen several threads on this site over the years where people good intentioned or not, come across as patronising to people who’s language isn’t native English. h0bby1 has brought up some very valuable discussion points since he appeared and should be embraced as the fresh-blood the OS requires, with fresh thinking and a clean slate.

I apologise if this comment comes across as rude, that’s not my intention.

And, consequently, your verity.

Wait: what ?

You’re basing his “truth” on his level of mastery of the English language? You realise with criteria like that, half the country would fail…

I think he is French; so… should we switch to his native language, then?

You’re basing his “truth” on his level of mastery of the English language?

ISTR John airing similar views over in csa.* before. It’s probably best to ignore him, unfortunately, as it seems that he didn’t learn from the reaction then either.

The polite thing to do would be to publicly apologise as he didn’t just offend h0bby1

If you never correct someone’s English then they’ll never learn.

Now, to me, that is a Jamaican constructon!

English: It all starts …

What starts about now is a lesson in manners. Find someone more useful to criticise. Like the whole of the BBC news team who murder the language on an hourly basis.

“h0bby” – I have no real name to use – uses better English than many natives I’ve met, and I have to admit has a better command of English than I have of French, German, Spanish, or Flemish¹

Many of the technical questions posed are quite valid, even if the answer frequently is that we are where we are so how do we move, carefully, to somewhere else and where is that somewhere else?

¹ The wife speaks a little, learned years ago for some reason but handy at times

My proposal of a Hypervisor had this kind of issue in mind, the aim being to allow software to run in legacy VMM’s and seamlessly integrate them back to the WIMP. This would get all legacy software running again and allow the sorts of fundamental RISCOS changes being discussed in this thread.

That proposal is what I saw as the long term conclusion when you first started on the work of ADFFS. You may not have seen it back then, but to me it was there a long way along the development path.
You’ve moved along the path faster than I thought.

You had probably realised that your hypervisor could effectively re-integrate much of the splintered RO world.
The question is was ADFFS really just a training exercise? :)

You had probably realised that your hypervisor could effectively re-integrate much of the splintered RO world.

There are today solutions for ROS3.1 (<=) applications, but still a hole for RPC solutions. I hope that one day, every application will work under RISC OS 5 and 32bit computers. Even ARMv5 apps in ARMv7 mode. IMHO, it’s a top priority.

You had probably realised that your hypervisor could effectively re-integrate much of the splintered RO world.
The question is was ADFFS really just a training exercise? :)

When I started out back in 2010 having not touched RISCOS for 20+ years, it was just a way to mount a floppy image when my PC blew up on Chrismas Day. In the years since its snowballed into both a full blown project and what is now essentially the outline of a Hypervisor.

You’re right, its pretty much been a training exercise. I’ve gradually pushed compatibility forward to initially RiscPC, then StrongARM and now ARMv5. ARMv7 is next once the Pi2 arrives.

The outline I have in my head is to split the VMM out of ADFFS into a dedicated Hypervisor and strip ADFFS back to its 1772 emulator. ADFFS can then integrate into the VMM’s as and when required.

You had probably realised that your hypervisor could effectively re-integrate much of the splintered RO world.

Yes, that only dawned on my a few weeks back, hence my post in the Code Review section for peer review/assistance to extend RISCOS.

Before I went down the current route of integration into ADFFS, I did approach the RISCOS license holders with a view to bundling RO3.1 in a dedicated VM. The usual legal issues got in the way, so I switched tact so I could at least provide some Pi support for legacy games. With a VMM based Hypervisor I can avoid the legal issue as folk can provide their own ROMS. I just need to provide the VMM framework to run them.

It’s going to be technically challenging and I’m sure there will be some issues along the way, not to mention the time it will take to code, but I’m confident I can get all software and games running seamlessly under RISCOS 5 both integrated into the WIMP and in the case of games running either within Windows or fullscreen.

The core JIT is already coded and way too fast for games, it has to throttle itself 95% of the time. We’ll have to wait and see what application performance is like, as it’s dependent on WIMP support. WIMP and 26bit Modules are next on my list, but TBH I’m thinking of stopping at this point and moving over to the Hypervisor as it solves the 26bit Module memory barrier without any magic on my part.

It needs thorough peer review and discussion, then assistance from the RISCOS devs to add the necessary extensions to the OS. Multi-core needs investigating as well, I have a Pi2 on the way so can start that in the background.

aaaa

is there a geographic filter we need to apply?

no se :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2W4wglPW2c Manu Chao – Desaparecido

I learned english with an indian and indonesian so it’s a bit kapput.

Anyway need to be realistic, between scotland who go away, the eu english speakers, and the american, i’m not sure this whole uk thing will still hold for very long, then who will say what is the correct english grammar ? :D

aaaa

I learned english with an indian and indonesian so it’s a bit kapput.

Okay, so probably not French then. ;-)

Anyway need to be realistic, between scotland who go away, the eu english speakers, and the american, i’m not sure this whole uk thing will still hold for very long, then who will say what is the correct english grammar ? :D

Ooooh – ouch! <giggle>