!65Host

Hi,

Do you have plans to include !65Host in the next batch of code releases?

Additionally, who now holds the sources in respect of former 8 bit systems software such as MOS 1.2 and DFS?

I think it should be possible to release !65Host in principle, possibly also including the binary ROM images it contains. For those who are interested, !65Host was 32-bitted in-house some years ago, but the 32-bit compatible version has never been released to my knowledge.

I believe Castle also has access to the BBC sources (although Pace had lost the sources to some ROMs, so they can never be released), but since this is outside the definition of RISC OS sources, we may need some further negotiation before releasing them.

I wonder how much interest there is in the BBC source code these days?

OK thanks, Sorry if this develops into a long post with a number of side topics.

My reasons for wanting to see !65Host ( and !65 Tube) released is so that after careful study the BBC emulation code could be ‘patched’ with the additional features such as Speech system support, Master 128 and Compact compatibility and support for direct disc access.

!65Host also needs to be updated so that it could be run on the Desktop as opposed to the Full-Screen it currently does.

In regard to older BBC/Master/Compact/Electron ROMS, If Castle is prepared to consider a ”..a non-commercial binary release of the roms in support of software emulations of older hardware..” , simmilar to the policy Amstrad have adopted in regard to the CPC/Sinclair system roms it would in my opinion be widely welcomed by those that still USE BBC Micro systems. You may of course have sound commercial reasons for not doing this, as ‘lost’ could have a number of meanings in this context.

A ‘source’ release would be more complex as you indicate, but the aim of putting old BBC sources under a ‘shared licence’ would be for preservation reasons as much as there still being interest in the code.

I was not saying a release should be made, only asking who the current holder was so that if needed people could be referred in the right direction.

My personal reason for clarifying what the situation in regard to BBC sources was because I was wondering how ADFS interfaced to the 177x in respect of handling interrupts. This is not information easily determined from the respective data sheets and reference manuals. (In any case Iyonix handles this very differently and with a different chipset). I was also wanting to work out how certain gap figures and sector skew worked in practice, as some sources differ on this.

Personally, I fell that there would still be considerable interest in a ‘binary’ or ‘source’ release of the MOS/BASIC/ADFS code, given that the BBC Micro architecture is still widely used. I’m assuming for the moment that Castle only inherited the ‘firmware’ aspects in respect of the old BBC range. Hardware documentation is an entirely different debate.

And finally, You may be aware of the efforts made to recover Domesday, If Castle now holds what Acorn did in respect of this pioneering project it would be public spirited of Castle to document what still exists for the benefit of those attempting to preserve it. It was my understanding Pace already did some work on this…

My reasons for wanting to see !65Host ( and !65 Tube) released is so that after careful study the BBC emulation code could be ‘patched’ with the additional features such as Speech system support, Master 128 and Compact compatibility and support for direct disc access.

I would point out that BeebIt already has M128/Compact/Direct disc access.

Adding these features to 65Host would take a lot of time, and considering how poor it’s emulation is, you wouldn’t get a fully compatible emulator at the end of it anyway.

Mr Lampard, thanks… Then it would appear release of !65Host would be superfluous if Beebit is already extant (and shared source) and does the emulations required..

Move to de-integrate !65Host given the existence of better ‘freeware’ alternatives anyone?

No doubt a ‘binary release’ or clarification on the status of the BBC System ROMS would help though?

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “de-integrate”. !65Host and !65Tube already haven’t been shipped with any version of RISC OS for a long time – possibly since RISC OS 2 - but as far as I know, there still nothing else like !65Tube.

I wouldn’t have expected !65Host to be one of the first things to be released myself, but we’re willing to listen people’s requests to help us work out the order in which to release things. If you still want !65Host, we can bump it up the list.

As for Domesday, remember Acorn was just one of the companies producing what was effectively just a terminal for the really expensive piece of kit, the LaserVision player. Philips and the BBC were the big players in the Domesday project, and that showed in the relative paucity of information about it in Acorn’s archives.

Given Mr Lampard’s comments !65Host is less of a priority, although if the sources where open the ‘poor-quality’ emulation he speaks of could be improved.

A clear statement regarding ‘binary’ distribution of old system Roms would however be of greater immediate concern.

Thank you for the comments in regard to Doomsday, that’s what I figured.

Mr Lampard, thanks… Then it would appear release of !65Host would be superfluous if Beebit is already extant (and shared source) and does the emulations required..

I don’t think BeebIt is technically shared source. It’s more a case of emailing Mike for the sources, and then emailing any changes back to him.

BeebIt

This requires the ROMs distributed within 65Host. While these are available elsewhere, it would be logical IMO to include them in a ROOL disc build, if possible. This would simplify the installation of BeebIt on the Raspberry Pi etc.

No posts for six and a half years… that’s still current by RO standards.

I just had a need for !65Tube, which I’ve used in the past for building sideways ROMs in a more pleasant environment than a Beeb emulator, and (re)discovered that it doesn’t work (entirely) on modern ARMs due to an assumption of pipeline length during a vector tail call – star commands kill it dead.

So I fixed that with some poking and now I can *EmulateTube like it’s 1988. However, it’s resolutely 26bit. Anyone want a 32bit version?

For compatibility, software and history, that would be fun to have 65Host and 65Tube under RISC OS 5.

Nemo, nice work on getting that going. Would you be interested in doing some update work on BeebIt? I’ve not been able to find the time to finish off some changes needed to keep it running with the EDID version of RISC OS. It needs a few bugs fixed too.

Hi Mike! My copy of BeebIt is from Aug 2002, I daresay you’ve updated it since then.

I’d be happy to look at it but I don’t have any EDID hardware – I’m emulation only these days.

I’m emulation only these days.

Are you running something special, or stuck with an emulation of a 22 year old processor?

There’s a pertinent point in there – to what extent should an emulation duplicate an actual machine for which the OS was legitimately targeted, and to what extent can the emulated environment be a legitimate platform itself. And in the latter case, why have so much of the OS on the emulated side of the fence?

Hi Mike! My copy of BeebIt is from Aug 2002, I daresay you’ve updated it since then.

I’d be happy to look at it but I don’t have any EDID hardware – I’m emulation only these days.

Thanks for the offer. I’ve got half of it done but it’s taking forever due to lack of time, so am happy for you to do whatever you can. EDID hardware is not necessary as it’s a change to using a different screen mode. There’s also some M128 incompatibilities that need attention.

Send me a message and we can discuss further. Contact details on my homepage:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mjfoot/

Glad to hear you are still working on BeebIt, however sporadically!

There’s also some M128 incompatibilities that need attention

I’d noticed Prince Of Persia wouldn’t run in M128 mode, complained about no sideways RAM IIRC.

I’d noticed Prince Of Persia wouldn’t run in M128 mode, complained about no sideways RAM IIRC.

Yep, I’m aware of that one. I’ve not been able to track that issue down yet but I did get around that detect routine to try it out.
POP pushes the M128 quite hard and is very slow under BeebIt, so might not be all that playable.

Oh the joy! Running M128 Edit using *EmulateTube:

I am still kind of sad that I needed to sell my precious beeb.. I am very interested in 65tube

How many times have we heard about someone looking at RISC OS for there first time and doing something in a way they expect to work as it would on the BBC Micro, though do to some detail does not?

Me: never.

However, I often heard from people looking at RISC OS and quickly turning away when they realize that RISC OS is not like Windows and Linux and misses certain functionality. A lot of functionality. Like WLAN and a capable browser.

Arthur OS, which is just of little use all the way around

If you think Arthur is useless, then the BBC MOS is even more so. Archimedes/Arthur could be viewed as a BBC Micro on steroids.

However, I often heard from people looking at RISC OS and quickly turning away when they realize that RISC OS is not like Windows and Linux

Well, “duh?” I’d phrase that differently though because, certain GUI similarities aside, Linux is not Windows. RISC OS is neither, so many respects a third camp.

and misses certain functionality. A lot of functionality. Like WLAN and a capable browser.

Again that needs clarification. Missing built-in WiFi support, missing a readily available capable browser.

Is it possible to run BBC BASIC V with a 6502 Assembler in a way that can integrate into the 65Host/65Tube environments?

That’s kind of what 65Tube is. It just does it under emulation rather than native.

THIS COULD HELP PEOPLE COME OVER

That ship sailed, got old, rusted, sunk, and now is a home to marine wildlife.

Though I would be very interested in getting ahold of a 32-bit R15 version of 65Host as it is the closest thing I ever used to a BBC.

There’s BeebIt. Don’t use BeebItJ, it doesn’t work (keeps crashing out on my Pi2). Regular BeebIt seems to work. There’s a ROM archive to get you started. It can emulate a B, a B+, a Master 128, and a Master Compact.
For other ROMs, there’s the mdfs site, and do note that the keyboard mapping is set up to be like a Beeb, and not like the keyboard you can see – so the ‘*’ is somewhere near the Enter key, not Shift-8. Wish that was configurable.

Anyway, BeebIt will give you the best 6502 experience on RISC OS machines. On non-RISC OS machines, BeebEm is the way to go. I think BeebEm can even play samples of floppy drive noises for the ultimate retro experience… click bzzzt chug chug chug…. ;-)

Me: never.

:-)

This used to be a thing. Back in the Archimedes era. It’s part of why 65Host and 65Tube existed, and also why BASIC (regular version) will trap CALLing MOS addresses and perform the correct functions.

A simple emulator (the one with the sources knocking around) was supplied with RISC OS 2. A better emulator (with sound) was supplied with RISC OS 3.

By the time of the RiscPC, little interest in supporting the 6502 era. I guess by then it was clear that schools were picking PCs and not Archimedi.

It still frustrates me when someone calls a Web Browser a part of an OS, it is a program that runs on the OS not part of the OS.

Well, um, in the Win32 era, it was. Remember when Microsoft was told to unpick MSIE from Windows and they freaked out? It’s because MSIE was actually intertwined with the OS. As of… Win98SE I think… it was possible to customise the look and feel of individual directories in (file) Explorer by writing simple HTML files.

In modern times, with more and more things running as web apps, and the native apps sometimes being little more than a wrapper for the website, it’s probably not a surprise that people think a browser is “the OS”.

Maybe they’re the same people that used to think that “the blue ‘e’ is the internet”.

And NetSurf is a lot more usable than FireFox or Edge nowdays,

Cheers. I’ve just spat a mouthful of tea clear across the room. Warn me next time you’re going to say something like this, I’ll open the window first.

especially now that FireFox on my roommates computer now outrite refuses to load 90% of the pages that are of any use, something about not a secure site.

Well, given you seem to roll with people happily using antiquated equipment, I will tell you that iOS7 Safari pretty much behaves the same on my site. I don’t know if it is because of SNI or because it uses TLS 1.2 with no fallback to weaker protocols, suffice to say that the handshake fails.

A recent version of Firefox with a useful set of addons works perfectly well. I’m writing this in 63.0 on my tablet.

I will reiterate: there are far better BBC Micro emulators out there than 65Host.

And you can get that retro feeling by simply configuring your RISC OS system of choice to boot to BASIC, not the Desktop.