The future: "Virtual RISC OS Shows?"
Chris Evans (457) 1614 posts |
The problem: Only a very small proportion of RISC OS users now get to the shows. Shows are expensive particularly in time, mainly of key RISC OS people! So how do we reach a much larger number of RISC OS users than attend the physical shows and free up time to enable more RISC OS development? My suggestion is ‘Virtual RISC OS Shows’ I haven’t had time to really develop the idea yet but here are some thoughts and a few ideas : Set a date X times a year. A show website (though a lot of the info can be on the individual exhibitors own sites and links provided) Site would go live at say 10a.m. Video pre recorded and or live? Periscope? You Tube? Q & A sessions Audio or textual (IRC chat?) Live feeds timetabled Back ground notes/other thoughts: How to provide the information in a way accessible to many e.g. Non Periscope / IRC users Many active RISC OS users can’t attend through limited time or location. Those who do attend often visit at least one of the other annual shows. Having a show date does focus the mind in getting things launched/upgraded. Most? show attendees have RISC OS systems later than the Iyonix already. Being able to see things demonstrated and discuss requirements and problems at shows is very useful for the small minority of RISC OS users who attend shows. I guesstimate less than half of the vocal users on the ROOL forum / stardot.org.uk / comp.sys.acorn.. have attended any show for years, and the vast majority of current RISC OS users haven’t attended a show for years. The RISC OS shows I guesstimate involves about £30,000 a year going outside the RISC OS community. Venue and equipment hire, travel, accommodation, food… Just think what say £10,000 a year could do for the Bounty scheme. CJE Micro’s & 4D will not be attending this years SouthWest Show. I was too busy last year and in the previous two years we didn’t cover our costs. One of those years we sold more RISC OS related items from our website on the day of the Show than at the In addition to the stand, travel and food costs, attending a show involves seven or eight man days preparation, travelling, attending and unpacking. If we had time on our hands that would make attending more viable but still inefficient. We have a backlog One advantage for physical shows for us is that we are often given old unused hardware, software and books. This is very much appreciated and does help us significantly in being able to continue supporting the RISC OS market. If people aren’t able to get It does need someone to co-ordinate it. Comments, suggestions, volunteers…? |
Ron Briscoe (400) 78 posts |
I like going to the shows in person, always a good day out. If The shows were to go ‘Virtual’ then I would probably leave the RISC OS scene. Regards Ron. |
Rick Murray (539) 13851 posts |
Can I cut and paste my suggestion from last year? You know, the one about YouTube live streaming… I can understand that shows are expensive, and I can understand that Where’s the social media? Where’s something to help share the fun in real-time with others? People who can’t make it, people who might think to make it next time? Somebody once told me that 85% of any product is in the publicity. That’s probably why Apple releases are big glitzy events, it’s literally nothing but a big pile of publicity. We’re the other end of the scale – still here, still going on, and just like Acorn of old, still quite unsure of how to get the word out (protip: don’t waste money on an F1 car!). Before thinking “virtual”, I would suggest thinking “2019” (or “how to interest a millennial”). |
Andrew Rawnsley (492) 1445 posts |
Chris – very sorry you feel that way. However, I think you’re looking at it all wrong. The shows aren’t necessarily about trying to make money at the event (although I agree it helps), but interacting with customers, chatting to them and being seen. It’s a two way street – we (as companies) have to support the market, and the market (hopefully) supports us back, but not necessarily there and then. This is why Richard and I stepped in to run the SW Show, despite living so far from the SW. If we don’t support the RISC OS community, and provide a venue for people to interact with the companies, and see that things are still happening, then this platform will struggle. If you are genuinely not covering your stand+travel, then Richard and I will be happy to discuss ways to reduce your stand costs. We’ve also moved the venue to make it more accessible, to increase attendance (which has risen each year under our stewardship). For what it is worth, we (R-Comp) probably won’t be covering the expense that we incur with staying at the hotel, travelling, organising and so on. However, that doesn’t for a minute stop me wanting to run the event. We need to be growing the market, and that means expanding shows and events, not reducing. Indeed, who’s up for a California show next year? ;) And, there seems to be growth in Spain, so… |
Andrew Rawnsley (492) 1445 posts |
Rick – I think part of the problem is the people involved. I don’t even have a proper facebook or twitter account. I know, I’m a ludite. I’m not a social creature, and I don’t want to share myself with the internet. As a result, I (and I’m going to say “we”, because I think a lot of RISC OS folks are in the same boat) don’t know what/how/where we should be doing in this regard. If someone wanted to take the strain on this, I’m sure it is something RISC OS Dev would be willing to assist with. It is just that it is so far out of our comfort zones, that anything we’d do ourselves would likely be half-baked. I’m sort of tempted to say we’ll get you a plane ticket if you’re willing to do something, but I’m not quite sure what I’m letting myself in for! |
GavinWraith (26) 1563 posts |
For me it is age . I gave up car-owning eight years ago, and public transport is not adequate for show-attendance. A pity – I enjoyed having a chat and a pub meal.
I like the idea.
Like you I have always avoided all forms of soshul meedyah , from LinkedIn to Facebook and Twitter, which is maybe not helpful. I do have a very old mobile phone handed on from my wife, but the only use I know how to make of it is to hail a taxi. I bought a cheap Android tablet, and I loathe it. It cannot be jail-broken, alas. I have come to the conclusion that I am allergic to GUIs that do not depend on the mouse. RISC OS is not the most capable platform for media, anyhow. I do admit to watching videos and listening to music on YouTube, with Linux. But enough of the ancientry. It is the media-savvy young techies that a RISC OS virtual show should be aiming at. I used to help take out the rubbish once or twice after the shows run by SASAUG when they were hosted in Guilford. So can anybody suggest any undemanding jobs that would contribute to a virtual show, such as could be achieved by the likes of myself? |
Richard Walker (2090) 431 posts |
Are there too many shows? At the height of Acorn, wasn’t there a London show, and Harrogate show? Now things are a fraction of the size, and we seem to have more! Virtual show or not, I continue to be baffled by so many people (some of whom pour lots of effort into shows) who have no (or rotting) Internet presence. Never mind social media, not even updated web sites! You don’t need to put your personal life onto Twitter, YouTube or Facebook. You can create corporate accounts, and people without social accounts can browse the content. So few publishers bother. Maybe those kind souls who do what they can with riscository, IconBar, riscosblog etc. Just need a bit of assistance? (financial or otherwise) We definitely need improved content out there. We’re a bit like a members only club! |
GavinWraith (26) 1563 posts |
Websites need acres of time to tweak and test. I suspect that people who run businesses have more pressing demands on that particular resource. Some years ago I used to earn some pocket money making and maintaining websites for a variety of different businesses and organizations. My aesthetic prejudices (keep it simple, avoid client-side scripting) were often at odds with theirs (make it look like rival businesses). It was all done from RISC OS platforms, apart from testing with other browsers, using my Weave application. |
Rick Murray (539) 13851 posts |
Depends upon the site. My blog, for instance, is some php to assemble the header and footer with content in the middle. I write the content only. Marking up is done on the go and it’s pretty easy. The hard and time consuming part is the actual blog content – depending on whether it’s the usual stream of consciousness drivel or if I need to actually do some research… But like I said with all the “stuff I’d do to RISC OS if the [insert show stopper] wasn’t an issue” thread, there are oh so many reasons not to bother doing something…
I agree. You’ll notice I only use minimal CSS and mostly old style markup. Well I think I’m at the point where I can forget Fresco, but if it isn’t sort-of-correct on NetSurf then it’s not good.
Ditto. I write a blog but it’s what I want when I want, not every single brain fart. Plus, you might have noticed that my style of writing is more akin to 140 paragraphs than 140 characters. :-)
So that’s a NO to the clip on elephant ears, Edna Everage glasses and giant nappy? Damn, that is my best outfit.
I don’t do social media. I can stream live video, but that’s really nothing special. Seriously…
If so, fire up the app, select Live Stream, provide some info, then away you go. A link to the stream ought to appear on the user’s profile page so others can watch the stream. There’s also some sort of live chat thing, but never tried that. So you can save yourself a plane ticket – just find somebody with a decent enough Android phone. Oh, and probably one of those backup battery gizmos so it doesn’t run out of juice too soon. ;-) What to do? Easy. Walk around the venue, talk to people. Show the sorts of things RISC OS can do and show people doing them. |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8172 posts |
There you go, you have proof your manager “does social media”. From that everyone should take note that making derogatory comments could put you in what is often referred to as “a career altering/limiting situation” because your manager may too “do social media” or even have whole department dedicated to “communications”
HuaWei? We could do with more people in China seeing RO :) |
Rick Murray (539) 13851 posts |
Not my line manager, a line manager. Would she be brave enough to admit? Did she even realise Facebook was spewing these updates to everybody? Chinese people and RISC OS. Hmm, wasn’t there “an issue” regarding, let’s say, fonts with ten thousand characters and RISC OS’ ability to do something sensible with them? |
Rick Murray (539) 13851 posts |
In response to your link about Huawei, yeah they probably are spying. But it’s a bit rich the Americans calling them out given CarrierIQ and their PRISM program basically offering the spooks an open door to anything Google, Facebook, etc have harvested and profiled. Also given that Facebook (with the help of Cambridge Analytica and overseas funding) were probably fairly implicit in the elections of both Trump and Brexit, I’m somehow failing to be overly impressed by allegations of Chinese spying. I believe the Chinese are spying, I don’t believe that the Americans aren’t. |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8172 posts |
And others. I was on a course a few years ago along with a group of forces people, one of whom was a UK forces NATO security specialist. He asked people to guess which nation was the source of most of the attempted hacks of the UK (and US) systems. Having people guess with Russia, China etc he finally revealed the answer was 90% were French sourced. |
Jon Abbott (1421) 2651 posts |
I understand where you’re coming from Chris, but I don’t think a virtual show is a solution as most RISC OS companies fail to maintain their own websites, let alone feed into another. The shows I’ve exhibited at have been pretty packed, so it not an issue of numbers, but either getting them to buy more “stuff” at the show, or getting folk that wouldn’t normally go to a show to attend. Some ideas:
We shouldn’t neglect folk that can’t attend though, show talks should be live streamed on YouTube and someone could walk around and interview exhibitors, either live or put up post edited highlights. |
Steve Fryatt (216) 2105 posts |
I hesitate to say this, but that needn’t be the case these days. Modern CMS make updates easy, and also give access to as many people as a business requires (even to different bits of the site, to limit what individuals can edit).
Again, that might be showing your age a little. A modern site using HTML 5 and CSS can be very simple from an HTML perspective, with the hard work being done by the same CSS files on each page. It can also degrade easily on to small screens (smart phones) or text readers. Also, as Rick says, a modern CMS lets you worry about the content and sorts out the layout for you on the fly.
That might be the problem, of course. :-) |
Steve Fryatt (216) 2105 posts |
That’s true, so maybe we need to ask why? Are those who don’t attend unaware of the shows, or unable to attend for practical reasons (health, other commitments, distance)? Can anything be done to improve this situation? Moving the SW Show to its new venue seems like a positive step towards improving public transport, but I do wonder about the relevance. Wakefield cancelled the minibus from Westgate station to our venue a few years ago, after we found that it had only been used a handful of times in recent years (such that paying for taxis would have been far cheaper than hiring the bus for the day). If that’s an indication of the number of people using public transport, it might turn out to be irrelevant in Bristol. Also, who are these mythical invisible people, and how do you know that they exist? My inbox as a developer seems to contain mostly people that I know either in person from shows or via forums like this, so I’m curious as to who this “vast majority” is – and whether they spend any useful money or contribute any time to the platform?
That’s true of a lot of things, though.
As Andrew says, I feel that you might be missing the point. Shows very likely have a purpose beyond sales on the actual day, in terms of customer engagement and ongoing business throughout the year. A customer looking to buy a new machine over the summer might opt to email a company whose stand they saw some on at the last show, for example. Exhibitors might drive developments to meet the (arbitrary) deadlines of show dates. There is a question to be asked, as the economics are difficult. Andrew states above that he and Richard will probably be making a loss on organising next weekend (separate from the economics of them both attending as exhibitors in their own right). I don’t know about the London show, but Wakefield usually bounces around the “barely breaking even” point (we made an “operating loss” last year, for example) unless the hotel end up reducing the bill in exchange for their mistakes on the day (such as the lift problems a couple of years ago). There is a strong message of “use it or lose it” here, I think. If you’re (in the wider sense than Chris, now) one of those who chooses not to come to a show but then demands updates on Twitter, live streaming, photos, videos reports and the like before the weekend is out1, consider that your entry fee might be the difference between the event making a profit or a loss on the day, and think about whose pocket any loss will be coming from. Richard and Andrew (or ROD?) might be funding the SW show this weekend, but any Wakefield and London losses will be coming from the coffers of the user groups who organise them. In Wakefield’s case, what remains in the bank from the surplus of the Thornes Park “heyday” is covering any losses for now, but that won’t last for ever. I believe that shows are still valuable, a view which is certainly shared by the team at Wakefield who continue to devote so much time2 to putting the event on each year, but they require the support and attendance of both the companies and the users to remain viable. I personally fail to see how an online show would bring any benefits over something like this forum, but if we don’t nurture the three events that we currently have, we could soon be finding out how well one could work. 1 And on this point, remember that exhibitors like myself might not get home until Sunday night. 2 It would be lovely if more of our members could help with the preparations. At present, I reckon that I spend more time each year doing show and newsletter admin that I do developing software for RISC OS, which is the main reason why updates to the latter are so few and far between nowadays. |
Jon Abbott (1421) 2651 posts |
I’ve failed to get a website up for JASPP for this very reason. I’m not going to (re)learn HTML, Javascript, CSS, SQL etc to build a website and don’t have the time to find a tool that will help me build it. Every so called web-expert I’ve got involved to produce the website for me has let me down…so…no website. I’d rather not have one, than put on a rubbish HTML only page that it of no use to anyone.
The RISCOS world seem to shy away from modern web standards as there’s no (fast?) native browser that supports them. I still find that ironic given my original iPad manages to do it perfectly well, and it’s less powerful than most of my Pi’s. That’s not to say having a modern browser will magically solve anything related to RISCOS user focused websites, I doubt it will change anything. |
Steve Fryatt (216) 2105 posts |
I’ve spent a fair bit of time looking into CMS platforms for the theatre company that I’m involved with. At present we have a fairly automated (in the sense of a lot of custom-written PHP pulling content data in and wrapping templates around it) site using HTML 5 plus CSS to make it mobile-friendly. The main problem in NetSurf is that the media target stuff in CSS isn’t implemented, so the layout ends up with some “hidden” bits showing. We’ve looked at things like Wordpress and Drupal, and they would all do the job fine (and much more easily than the current system), with the exception of how we handle a very custom database of past productions stretching back to the 1940s. Once this is cracked, we could migrate to a proper CMS and have different people editing their own sections of the site – instead of having to feed all updates via a single webmaster as we do at present – and doing so with no HTML tags in sight.
This is a problem, and is why I don’t spend a lot of time updating the WROCC site these days. One day it will move to HTML 5 regardless, as it can be made to render OK in NetSurf – and my view tends towards assuming that most visitors will be using other browsers these days, anyway. |
Rick Murray (539) 13851 posts |
He wasn’t a Daily Mail hack on the side, was he? ;-)
Distance and expense. Let’s face it, nothing happens in this part of France. Like, ever.
I would imagine its an extrapolation from seeing the same people over and over. We can attract “new” developers (AmCog being an example), however are we doing it at a sustainable rate? What does RISC OS have to offer, and how can the word be spread? I look at the likes of the micro:bit and I wonder why there isn’t something that can do similar with a Pi? People might say that teaching kids BASIC is a non-starter. Are drag-and-drop representative code blocks much better? Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I rather imagine learning to understand how to code is more important than any specific language crusade. Something that I discovered with the ESP32 is that making complicated things happen can actually be really simple when they’re backed up with good libraries. My NetRadio is an example of a weekend and few evenings of work. Wouldn’t it be good to present RISC OS as a way to “do” things? Why did I learn BASIC? Because it could do my maths homework. Do you see a theme? Finding a solution to a problem is more motivation than any number of books and tutorials. I had very little actual “computer studies” education. My first CS teacher was hands-off, telling us to write a database in BASIC and expecting us to learn from our mistakes. He was replaced by an IT teacher that could barely understand Can RISC OS offer that to anybody? If so, how? That seems to me to be a more fundamental issue than how many people may or may not attend shows. This isn’t a question of “build it and they will come”, it’s more a question of a symboitic relationnship between interested people and the shows. If nothing else, a show is a good place of knowing “where to look”. An earlier thread demonstrated this regarding an obscure StrongHelp file with a numeric suffix. All stuff that newbies won’t know. Just like they probably won’t know that CJE has everything in stock1.
While that is a valid point, it’s an equally valid point that live updates are just “normal” in this day and age. Examples of our deplorable social interaction:
WordPress.com? There’s an app for the pokey-proddy device of your choice to make it dead easy to write content. I keep trying to get mom to write a blog but she doesn’t see the point in sharing anything with random unknown people.
My entire website is rubbish HTML only pages. I might use PHP to assemble the look and feel of my blog, but the end result is HTML. Consider the maxim “content is king”. I would rather read content that is of interest if it is laid out as a chunk of PRE text, than any amount of blingy fancy rubbish that is not of interest. While I’m not a big customer (so hardly important), I have dumped sites and companies for being unclear, confusing, or obfuscating prices and specifications. I doubt I’m the only one. To this end, I don’t get the RISC OS habit of keeping big secrets to be revealed “at the show”. It seems to me that these things should be pre-announced as an incentive to try to get to the show (if you’re undecided) because then you can see “big thing” in action and doing its thing.
Two points: Firstly, yes, I do wonder why “big” browsers struggle so much on RISC OS given that earlier phones and tablets were rather less powerful than today’s Pi family. Examples? That stupid self-updating wishlist in Amazon (I much preferred the numbered pages) which is annoying, and pretty much any page in the Daily Mail website which consists of endless disaster porn photos (mom used to like to look at DM for some reason, the fact that it usually kills Safari is, to me, a good thing, wean her off of that right-wing propaganda). Summary: I think attendance to shows is indirectly related to interest in the platform. It may be that upping the show numbers means a long hard think about what it is that RISC OS has to differentiate itself from Windows and “endless Linux clones”. I’ll leave you with a final thought. My rubbish “recorded with a potato” YouTube video about installing RISC OS on a Pi (2012/12/27) has been watched 12,851 times since it was uploaded with 25 views in the past 28 days (47 likes, 5 dislikes), and the follow-up using RISC OS on the Pi (2015/03/16) has been watched 6,198 times with 61 views in the past 28 days (62 likes, 12 dislikes). So… there is interest in RISC OS. How to cultivate it? There’s the question right there. 1 Just off the top of my head, I remembered that little battery level LCD in the A4 and… guess what… http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/individual/newprodpages/prodinfo.php?prodcode=ACO-A4GG |
Steve Fryatt (216) 2105 posts |
I don’t think the two points are actually incompatible, are they? The RISC OS world is extremely bad at social media and online presence. I frequently find myself looking stuff up when writing or editing articles for The WROCC, and the websites of companies like R-Comp are a complete joke. Even the SW Show website for next weekend doesn’t have a full exhibitor list up yet. At the theatre, in contrast, we have a dedicated team (yes, in a volunteer organisation) looking after the social media stuff – because we know that it matters. But, the uncomfortable fact remains that you can’t have live feeds and updates from a show if there isn’t a show happening. Which means that, in reality, if you’re sitting at home next weekend thinking “I could get to Bristol, but it’s much easier to ask for someone else to update me”, then get in your car or on the train and go. Your door receipt, plus any money that you spend with exhibitors, will make it more likely that the organisers will be able to justify doing a 2020 event and that the exhibitors will book stands. |
Vince M Hudd (116) 534 posts |
Jon:
Don’t get a web-expert involved. Get someone who actually knows what they’re doing instead! But seriously, if you set up the forum, you can set up a CMS. A decent one shouldn’t need much knowledge of HTML, etc. You’ll probably need to set up a MySQL (or other) DB, depending which CMS you go with, but once it’s set up everything else will be handled by the CMS. You just need to log in and write the content. WordPress, for example, was an absolute breeze to set up when I did so (and should be even easier still if it’s hosted by them). Sadly, though, it’s no longer a breeze to use. The new editor is rubbish, and really slow (at least on my main box – faster kit might be better) and I find it easier now to write my content, with limited mark-up, in a text editor then paste it in. So I can’t actually recommend WordPress, despite pointing out how easy it was to set up. :( (To the extent that I’ve been considering migrating away from it for a long time, and now I want to more than ever. I’m thinking of rolling my own, but that does mean a bit of time and effort.) |
Chris Hughes (2123) 336 posts |
I personally would not use a virual show, it misses the point of a show to go and see things and discuss requirements and issues with the companies concerned. People sometimes don’t buy on the day but see say a new computer and they fancy it but are not sure they can spend the money there and then and order after the event , but now with more info direct from the company at the show. so after show sales need to be considered. As to running a show yes it can be expensive you have to cover venue hire, liabiity insurance (legal requirement), and other costs. We ran a min bus from the station for about three years but found in the final year we had 6 people use it all day. We try and advertise in Archive magazine and Drag n drop but archive only came out once in 2018 yet it is supposed to have a lot of subscribers many who don’t attend shows. This makes promoting the show difficult. We used to let the local radio stations know of the event, plus the local papers whats on features etc. How we widen the market is difficult. |
Frederick Bambrough (1372) 837 posts |
Requires a generous supply of cough sweets and someone with a butterfly net to remove the mildly bewildered who wander in front of the camera. |
Chris Evans (457) 1614 posts |
Sorry I didn’t explain myself well, my idea is not that Virtual shows would replace the physical shows, the opportunity to try products oneself and ask questions in person is not something that a Virtual Show can offer. My posting was not meant to impact the South West show negatively and I apologise to Richard and Andrew if that occurs. I do hope that as many people as possible go and most importantly spend lots of money. As Steve Fryatt says above “Use it or lose it” How can we increase the numbers going to physical shows has no easy answer but we could use technology to make them accessible to many more. (Ricks You Tube streaming idea…) Different things appeal to different people, those of our community who live in remote areas have limited choices and those Antipodean almost none. Social Media is a moving target and diverse and can be very time consuming. For me time spent diverted to shows is anything is more important than the money.
We are in contact with a much much wider range of RISC OS users than frequent these forums. They tend to come to us when their RISC OS system has problems, mouse no longer working, battery leakage on their RISC PC, Iyonix PSU, monitor died etc it is not that uncommon for them not realise that RISC OS shows are still going on and some have never heard of ROOL! Whilst often they don’t spend much money and if they do it may be on old machines, they are comparatively ‘low hanging fruit’. New users are less likely to buy a new RISC OS 5 machine other than Raspberry Pi based units. When I have time, I’ll respond to other comments and suggestions. |
David R. Lane (77) 766 posts |
Virtual RISC OS Shows was an agenda item at our SAS AUG (no, that’s not the military wing of the RISC OS world, but Surrey And Sussex AUG) meeting last night at the Black Jug, Horsham. Most of the assembled throng thought it a no-no with one saying that most RISC OS folk would not use such a ‘hi-tech’ method. After a few pints of Harvey’s Sussex Best bitter, we came up with a variety of creative solutions. Show organizers should ensure that the venue is within walking distance of a station with a frequent train service. ROUGOL do this, Wakefield used to do this, but then moved to a hotel a twenty-minute bus ride away from Wakefield Westgate station, and others have not. At last, the SW show will be just a 20-minute walk from such a station (Bristol Temple Meads). So, I for one, will be going. I have always given the SW show a miss and now rarely get to the Wakefield show. Why does a show have to be in a hotel anyway? I am more likely to go to a show in a community or church hall near a station than a hotel out in the sticks. What about others? Can show webmasters put travel directions by public transport first, that is, before directions by road. We are not all ‘petrol heads’. Judging by car park usage at the London show, most punters come by public transport. |