Help me understand Cloverleaf

David – drop me an email please – I think maybe you’ve not ended up on our mailing list, so haven’t been sent the info. You should have received a newsletter last month, and there’ll be another this month just updating things.

most of those “new” ideas have already been discussed to death on Usenet and Fidonet in the early 1990s. It is not everyone’s idea of fun to discuss the same things over and over again.

I was born in the 90’s so these conversations were taking place while I was still in diapers. I didn’t know you had to search through years of archives before you could post on a forum.

Entry-level videos to introduce RISC OS to the masses. Writing tutorials for users accustomed to other OSes on how to do things with RISC OS.

I think Wifi Sheep does a great job with his videos on RiscOS Direct. Tutorials should really be written by those who have years of experience with a platform I would think, not someone new to it.

I was born in the 90’s so these conversations were taking place while I was still in diapers. I didn’t know you had to search through years of archives before you could post on a forum.

In those two sentences you manage to capture the essence of a major RO problem – there is so much RO history that is largely unrecorded and all of us who lived it tend to expect others to just know.

Feel free to suggest ideas as they come, but don’t be too surprised if the old farts recall the same being raised and done to death years ago.

David – drop me an email please – I think maybe you’ve not ended up on our mailing list, so haven’t been sent the info

I confirm I did not :)

Information flow and organisation might be one of the main problems.
I started the Cloverleaf project nearly 2 years ago in November 2018. Since then I try to fill up the gaps in my RISC OS knowledge what happened the last 25 years in the RISC OS world and also try to remember about how RISC OS works.

I was lucky not be part of RISC OS in the dark ages of the fork. ;-) But life what is not perfect is just life what we encounter every day.
Perfect life does not exist! And perfect life will be boring!

Communication between the main groups will be also a major problem to prevent overlapping work or double work. BUt about that we can think when my project succeded otherwise – never mind. We will know that in about 4 month.

Stefan Huber: Yes you don't need to be a programmer to help RISC OS to be successful again. You can be a designer, a writer (documents & manuals), a manager, a translator, a tester or an assistant. Send application to <a href="mailto:inforiscoscloverleaf.com">info@riscoscloverleaf.com :-) (this time not kidding)

Feel free to suggest ideas as they come, but don’t be too surprised if the old farts recall the same being raised and done to death years ago.

Who you calling an old fart? I’m was only 21 the other day… 21 in base 21 that is :)

Us old lot need to remember that much has changed since 1998 (which was 3 or 4 years ago, right?) and what was the case then may not be true now.

you manage to capture the essence of a major RO problem

The other major problem is the RISC OS time distortion effect, as hinted at by Chris in the above post. You know, the one where “the last five years” is synonymous with “yesterday”.

but don’t be too surprised if the old farts recall the same

That’s okay. As long as we can still recall it, all is good.

I was born in the 90’s

Oh dear. Most of my favourite songs predate you. Midlife crisis, here I come! Wheeee!

Perfect life does not exist!

I really don’t think you need to be putting that in bold in 2020.
Perfect life? We’re all somewhere between screwed and f<meep>ed.

We’re all somewhere between screwed and fed

Couldn’t agree more 😞

I think that it is mainly a perception problem that the RISC OS community – yes, all four of you! – is sometimes perceived as not welcoming new users with their new ideas. Because of RISC OS’ long long history, most of those “new” ideas have already been discussed to death on Usenet and Fidonet in the early 1990s. It is not everyone’s idea of fun to discuss the same things over and over again.

I don’t think there is much overlap with discussion in 1990s – we’re not still discussing porting to PowerPC or its support for virtual reality UIs (now back in fashion after 25 years!). The main recirculating discussion is usually about things which are sensible but unachievable – yes it would be nice to port to that 7 million core supercomputer or a mobile but a) it would be a huge amount of work, b) who would pay for it, c) what apps would run, d) would it be anything like RISC OS at the end? It might be useful to have an FAQ sticky/wiki or something on the forum for those recurring questions.

The way I see it is people who use RISC OS typically self-select, and so people who use it are already comfortable with its downsides. So for instance the lack of preemptive multitasking becomes a feature (’it’s so responsive’) not a problem (that the vast majority of software in the world won’t run without big drawbacks due to the huge hacks and kludges necessary). There are/have been some folks in the community that are quite vocal and tend to drown out other voices. So the downsides get talked up as features (‘who needs Javascript in a browser anyway, it’s just bloat’) which serves to put a wedge between people who just wanted to use RISC OS in their day-to-day and appreciate the sharp edges being removed, those who have the ability to improve things but are put off by their work not being appreciated, and those who are very happy exactly where they are and shout loudly if anyone tries to change things.

For a kind of new user perspective, this article was interesting:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/a-decidedly-non-linux-distro-walkthrough-haiku-r1-beta2/

Not RISC OS, but describes how the ‘review’ largely failed because the reviewer was expecting some degree of 21st century basic necessities (a working browser, touchpad and eMMC support). My point here is not about those specific things or what RISC OS’ equivalent deficiencies might be, but gaining a positive new user first impression will fail if all the downsides are dismissed as unimportant.

It sounds like ROOL/ROD/Clover/etc are taking a decent lead on technical things and some of the vitriol has been dialled down in recent years, which is all to the good.

Who you calling an old fart? I’m was only 21 the other day… 21 in base 21 that is :)

26 here. To paraphrase Eric Morecambe: the numbers are all right, just not necessarily in the right order.

Theo:

So the downsides get talked up as features (‘who needs Javascript in a browser anyway, it’s just bloat’)

Who needs Flash? It’s deprecated in Windows etc these days. Anyway about our browser that supports HTML5, er, umm.

@Theo Markettos: Well said! Most important missing feature is a full browser. A browser that cannot cope with Javascript is like back to the future 20 years ago. Only RISC OS related websites use no javascript. So I hope the efforts of RISC OS Dev. Ltd. will give us that this year.

The next step will hopefully be video decoding by the GPU which we will look into. A browser that cannot play youtube or Netflix is only 70% of it’s capabilities.

PS: I am 26 too!

Upps, than I’m nearly the youngest… 25 ;-)

Youtube, Netflix & Co. not really the things I need but for my daughter (16-right order ;-) ). So she use her PiTop more with Linux than RISC OS.
Youtube-Dl can handle any of this and so theoretic also Streamer or YTPlay but I can only try German streams! . Practical I have a own development version can handle parts of Prime, RTLnow and anytimes Filmon but not stable.

like back to the future 20 years ago.

[…]

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/a-decidedly-non-linux-distro-walkthrough-haiku-r1-beta2/

I really think this ought to be an essential read for all of us.
Mentally replace all occurances of “Haiku” with “RISC OS”, and the story still stands.
There is a place for the OS, many of us here use it daily, maybe even exclusively. However there is an ever-increasing pile of expectations that will be inherited from other platforms.

gaining a positive new user first impression will fail if all the downsides are dismissed as unimportant.

I’m of the belief that in time (maybe even by the end of this seemingly wretched decade?) the “operating system” will cease to be relevant. People moved fairly painlessly from desktop machines to mobile (now that mobile phones are as powerful as PCs were back then). That means there’s a pretty good chance that it’ll be either iOS or Android.
My place of work? They ditched Windows and transitioned everything to Linux. And when they understood that Linux software doesn’t have an ethic that businesses are used to dealing with – saying “you have the source, you fix it” is not what a company wants to hear when trying to figure out why entire chunks of distributed stock control are missing – that stuff is seriously important in a tracability system where every single packet of something is barcoded and tracked from it’s arrival through to exactly what product it was used in (and when). So deciding that their foray into Linux was a failure, they went wholesale back to Windows. And a new stock system. That had faults. But the creators of the system came and visited the company to appreciate and understand what we were trying to do (and why) and they fixed the problems.

So, from people watching films and writing crap on Facebook/Twitter to a company shifting OS and going back again, the big driver here is not what the OS is. Apart from some notion of a vague holy war (Linux vs Windows, Apple vs Everything else, iPhone vs Android, blah blah) most people don’t care. They don’t care what the OS is. They don’t care what processor it runs on. Hell, they don’t even care what’s inside the box. All they really care about is “can this do the things that I want to do”.

Raik points out that he has a variety of methods that might make it possible to download and watch stuff off YouTube. Meanwhile, his daughter, uses something where she clicks an icon and it just does it.

If we try to appeal to a mainstream consumer oriented public with what we have today, those limitations aren’t “unimportant”, they’re “critical”. List every social media system and messaging protocol. Exactly how many are supported? Telegraph via Chatcube? Right, Telegraph, that’s the one nerds use. ;-) All of the streaming video services? HBO, Prime, Disney, Netflix, and a dozen others. Where’s the app?

Possibly the most important goal right now (that appears to be underway) is having a competent browser. A browser, which in itself is an entity vastly more complicated than the OS it runs on, is the gateway to the modern online world.

If we can manage that, we’ll at least be better than Haiku. ;-)

A browser that cannot play youtube or Netflix is only missing 70% of it’s capabilities.

There, fixed that for you.

The way I see it is people who use RISC OS typically self-select, and so people who use it are already comfortable with its downsides.

so true, certainly in my case. The advent of CloudFS and VNC has made it much easier to live with the downsides, inasmuch as accessing specifically capable OS/hardware combinations to view a YouTube video or just use a fast, JS-able browser from within the RISC OS desktop is now much easier. It’s when one finds oneself spending more time under VNC than ‘native’ that thoughts about the continuing relevance of RO begin to surface…. That said, RISC OS is as comfortable and familiar as an old shoe and ‘just works’ for most of the creative stuff I regularly want to do. I particularly appreciate the way the way it doesn’t constantly imagine it knows what I want to do next or how I want to do it better than I do (yes, I own an iPhone!).

They don’t care what the OS is. They don’t care what processor it runs on. Hell, they don’t even care what’s inside the box. All they really care about is “can this do the things that I want to do”.

I agree absolutely. Compared to the vast majority of users, especially those not yet in their 3rd decade, we and others who are still discussing the merits of one OS or the other are like mediaeval schoolmen debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The next step will hopefully be video decoding by the GPU which we will look into. A browser that cannot play youtube or Netflix is only 70% of it’s capabilities.

Absolutely. Actually, I would say ‘40% of its capabilities’ would be nearer the mark. I support Cloverleaf and wish them well in their efforts to improve some of the OS’s manifest shortcomings. It may be that the changes required to make this possible, including multi-core support, or rewrites of the internet stack, or even the I/O system itself, may cause an unavoidable, functional break in the OS. This would be much more of a problem, I think, if we did not have RPCEmu. I recently needed to make extensive use of !Sleuth – it won’t run on my Pi3. Solution: fire up 5.27 running on my Wintel lappie under RPCEmu (now wonderfully easy to connect wirelessly – thanks Peter!), and, problem solved.

the “operating system” will cease to be relevant

The OS of most people (even the journalists of ArsTechnica) is the web.

Raik points out that he has a variety of methods that might make it possible to download and watch stuff off YouTube. Meanwhile, his daughter, uses something where she clicks an icon and it just does it.

There is a second reason. At school she need MS- or Libre Office. For the Writer Part TechWriter is enough but for Presentation, Calculation… not.
First step “pro RISC OS”… She like Artworks.

She like Artworks.

[a minute passes]

She like Artworks.

[another minute passes]

She like Artworks.

I’m really feeling the love in this room for ArtWorks.

:-)

Sorry, not sure what the reason was. SM-Art-Phone…

She like Artworks.

Me too. It’s a wonderful piece of software – one of the reasons I still use RISC OS.

@Steve Pampling: Thanks for the historic update.

(And when they understood that Linux software doesn’t have an ethic that businesses are used to dealing with – saying “you have the source, you fix it”)

Rick Murray gave here a good example why open source is not the answer to all questions. If you need to rely on support like companies do then open source doesn’t do the trick unless you want to hire your own programmer to do fixes or extentions.

I agree (sadly) that most people nowadays have no idea about hardware or software. They just use it and if it is pink then it as an important feature. And there usability is the main issue. Well I don’t want to degrade RISC OS to that level but to get a bigger user base we also must care about such people (just users). That is why I want to make sure that we create a complete package for RISC OS that anyone can use without being a hacker or visit 100 websites before they can do what they need to do. RISC OS was a complete package 30 years ago. But it is not anymore due to the progress in technology.

By the way on the plan is also to update Martin Würthners !Gutenprint to support actual printers. www.mw-software.com/Gutenprint
Which hasn’t been updated for 10 years.

One part of the mission of Cloverleaf is also to form a brand that represents RISC OS based computers in public. And for that we need hardware that we can sell and not only a link to a download page.

By the way on the plan is also to update Martin Würthners !Gutenprint to support actual printers. www.mw-software.com/Gutenprint
Which hasn’t been updated for 10 years

Great news no plug and play (pray) for modern printers is a serious short fall for people looking to try RISC OS.

One part of the mission of Cloverleaf is also to form a brand that represents RISC OS based computers in public. And for that we need hardware that we can sell and not only a link to a download page.

I can just picture a PineBook Pro with a laser cut cloverleaf on the outside and RISC OS on the inside.

By the way: Can we claim that RISC OS is virus free?

By the way: Can we claim that RISC OS is virus free?

Short Answer: No

Long Answer: No, but with lots of hand waving, arguments about semantics, claims of “it’s a feature” and nostalgic tales of that day the classroom got infected with the Icon virus.

@Stefan: We could claim it being virus-free.

But what is the aim of such a statement? To the target audience you’d say “everything will be fine, this here is safe”. And it isn’t. RiscOS is secure by obscurity and rareness, not by design or implementation.

I’d try to message “this is fun & easy to use, and not too complex, you can handle that and get shit done”.