Cooperative Multitasking

Besides… I’m not sure you should use TaskWindow as an example. ;-) I wonder if Charles is reading and would fancy stepping up to dump some vitriol on TaskWindow?

Sure, the implementation is not great, but the idea is.

@ Steve Pampling

Can I run Fortnite

So I did a Google query, and after a very short read I realised I didn’t care.

Sorry, I am not sure I understand your comment. Are you suggesting that because you don’t care then nobody does? I don’t think you are… but you never know! ;)

So again for the modern desktop for the masses

Ah, for the masses. So when do we ditch the middle mouse button menu stuff and bung a “ribbon” across the top of things?

May I remind that modern Windows/Linux mouses have the scroll wheel clickable? All we need to do is swap the middle button with the right button actually, most Linux and Windows use the right button for menu…

Beware of dumbing things down for the masses, MS already took that market and have it sewn up tight.

Yes both me and Rick ARE BEWARING loooool :D (and we are even in agreement loool impressive!) that’s EXACTLY what we are saying.

I think that some less experienced user got confused with RISC OS (this is just my opinion of course!), but RISC OS CAN be confusing, here is why:

• Yes RISC OS can do impressive Vector Graphics and we have some applications that still kills many (not all) modern apps for macOS and/or Windows
• Yes RISC OS is the OS where the original Sibelius 7 was created (arguably one of the most impressive if not the most impressive music notation software ever made)
• Yes RISC OS has some extremely good Desktop Publishing software, some very good Word Processor and even some nice Spread Sheet and then a plethora of M$ Access like DBMS (which never evolved, so they are no longer competitive even against the free SQLite)

But this doesn’t makes it suitable as a daily driver / modern desktop OS. RISC OS still presents that original nature (very similar to the original macOS for the late 68K / early PowerPC line Macs) which was something for specialists in the sectors of music, graphics and DTP.

A daily driver OS needs way more than the list above especially in a time where a lot of workflows for many jobs are based on cloud-services¹, distributed notifications, ecosystems etc…

¹ Please note: I am not arguing if transition to cloud is good or not. Actually I do not really care if you want my opinion.

Sure, the implementation is not great,

Well done David, you’ve picked up the British habit of sarcastic understatement.

A daily driver OS needs

I drive myself daily. The most sophisticated thing in my car is the radio.

My next car will be a younger model of the same thing. Then maybe, if I can be bothered, I’ll take driving lessons and get taught how to be a right prick like everybody else seems to be when they’re behind the wheel.
But I dread the idea of buying a new “real” car. Too much tech, too much connectivity.

The guy that used to take me to work? Had an executive model C4. No gears, it did it by itself. No accelerator on main roads, he clicked a button on the steering wheel and it registered the speed and did they itself. If it started to rain, the wipers turned themselves on. When it got dark, the lights turned themselves on. He told me that it would even dip down from main beam when it noticed the headlights of another car. All he did was steer the thing. Oh, and it killed the engine if the car was still for more than a couple of seconds. Must have an impressive battery to handle the constant restarting of town driving.
Some of the more advanced cars can be unlocked, boot opened, engine and/or AC started and stopped, all from an app.

I like the idea of an ECU to optimise fuel use and make the car more economical. Anything more than that and I’m like “uh, no”. Sure, Bluetooth pairing with the media player is useful. Pairing with the car’s management system? OMFG, leave it as a plug under the dashboard so at least physical access is required.

Okay, now I have a film to watch…

Did not realise that the labeled ‘dead link’ was working, so did not follow it

A dead link is an invitation to use your browser “copy link” option and paste that into the wayback machine or do a few other tweaked searches, or least at is for me. :)

pop over to The Guardian to assess the level of stupid in the world ¹, and read XKCD

Generating footnote links with no footnote just to see how long people look for the footnote?

A portmanteau of “phone” and “tablet” to give the horrible “phablet”.

I thought that was normally referred to as a “fondle-slab”

so I’m going to finish this, make a tea, and go lie in bed (it’s cold!) and watch it. If my back is okay, there’s Cursed to finish watching. If my back isn’t okay, well, I’ll probably finish watching it anyway… :-)

Ever thought about a selfie stick attached to a solid point near the bed? No strain on the arms…

Speaking to people? Why would I want to do that?

Ah, about that.
I have a work mobile (no interest in one of my own, the work one goes everywhere with me) but I’ve not had a work call on it since I restarted work and sorted out the expired passwords on the work domain.
I suppose I could use the mobile to log into the MS Teams call every weekday morning, but the laptop is easier and I need to connect to work on that anyway.

It would be interesting if I could do that stuff on RO

just to see how long people look for the footnote?

Sorry, forgot. The footnote on the topic of stupid was going to be that Trump demanded a recount in Milwaukee County (and everywhere else he could) and when the recount was done, they found some votes had been missed….for Biden.

a “fondle-slab”

Ah. Now while phone, phablet, and tablet are relating to relative sizes, the term fondle slab relates to the user’s inability to leave the thing alone.

“My machine, my tablet, my precious…”

No strain on the arms…

It’s not the arms, it’s lower back from lying still and on my back. I sleep on my side, usually turning about every half hour. Can’t sleep on my back. Used to sleep on my front when I was younger but my neck doesn’t appreciate it these days.

Now, that film, two hours later… BBFN!

Well done David, you’ve picked up the British habit of sarcastic understatement.

Or the French one…

I drive myself daily. The most sophisticated thing in my car is the radio.

And I use RISC OS daily, for work.
It’s all about expectations Paolo :)

Now, that film, two hours later… BBFN!

It was okay. I missed the gothic atmosphere of the original, though at least this time around they did the medical stuff a little better (specifically noting that defib isn’t going to be a lot of use unless there’s some form of heart movement). A lot of movies treat it as a way to kickstart a heart that has completely stopped, probably because they didn’t remove the “de” from the name of the machine and look up what “fibrilation” actually means…

Loved the mythology gag – the doctor in charge was an guy called Nelson played by Keifer Sutherland. Um…

probably because they didn’t remove the “de” from the name of the machine and look up what “fibrilation” actually means…

I actually built three fibrillators back in the days I worked on medical kit.
All used in the cardiac theatres.

Punch ’em bloody hard in the chest. Might be enough to jerk the heart back into a stable rhythm. If not, punch ’em again, harder.

After all, they ain’t gonna be any deader…

@ David Feugey

And I use RISC OS daily, for work. It’s all about expectations Paolo :)

your comment was on a message from Rick, but I feel honoured to be mention in his place :D

I agree with you it’s always a question of expectations David. In my case RISC OS is for fun only and it’s perfect for that.

Using it as a daily driver could be possible by surrounding it with Linux to do all the real stuff and then use RISC OS for … ermmm StrongAED (no wait VSCode studio does more an better and it’s faster… actually even vi is faster and does more), let’s say Nettle for the ssh connections (no wait pretty much every other terminal does more and better)… ok ok I could use it to compile code with gcc (no wait it’s single core so it’s way faster to compile on Linux)… haaaaa yessss I can use it for music!!! (no wait no 32bit music applications yet…) ok I give up it’s just for fun and coding I want to do just for RISC OS, but still makes me happy :)

@ DavidS

I do wonder what people want of a daily use OS.

I mentioned in a nice list earlier, and that is at this time… but with time needs changes and the next wave is even further away from RISC OS… Amazon Alexa, Apple Siri are starting to reshape again the OS “UI” towards an AI based UI.

Soon we’ll have OS that can directly query Wikipedia and use AI to actually respond our questions. The OS of the future (well present at this point) have to run on every devices from the dying market of desktop computer, to the slightly more alive of Laptop to the tablets and phones and soon AR devices (like glasses etc.)

People nowadays play VR games in their bedrooms and use AR. Have TV channels on their OS, play games that go from old school to impressive futuristic procedural architecture like No Man’s Sky or impressive new forms of Elite (yup still very much alive) like Elite Dangerous

People wants computers that allow them to work from everywhere and have extended battery life as well as still being powerful (which is why Apple had to go ARM).

People want to have access to their digital live from everywhere and share what they like with their friends on-line. People want to have more and more an augmented reality where they can feel stars, eros, protagonists.

People want technology is to make life easier and better…

Obviously you may say at this point: but this is not what I (DaviS/David Feuguey/etc…) want. And that’s totally fine, however it’s also true that there is a market (of which RISC OS is not part of) that is as described above and that market is way… way… wayyyyy bigger than RISC OS market (ermmm community). Can we agree on this at least? :)

Amazon Alexa, Apple Siri are starting to reshape again the OS “UI” towards an AI based UI.

So, there was me thinking they were just data mining.

Soon we’ll have OS that can directly query Wikipedia and use AI to actually respond our questions.

It’s improved an awful lot from the articles by no nothing egotists, but I wouldn’t rely on Wikipedia (even with citations)

Games will always be greate. Personally I do not like the MMO crud, though that is a personal view.

I normally just say games aren’t my thing, but if you want to dismiss one set of, usually rather good, graphics then you might as well bundle them all under “crud”
Like I say, not my thing, but some people like them and having smooth accurate graphical representations/reproductions of things is useful.

Though I would also ask what is it that people see in RISC OS? Why is it that the RISC OS userbase is growing at a rate we have not seen in a very long time, if ever?

Raspberry Pi PR.

What can be done to cater to what is already causing RISC OS to grow?

Work your way down the list of things in the Cloverleaf kickstarter and see if you can think of things to add.

Why is it that the RISC OS userbase is growing at a rate we have not seen in a very long time, if ever?

Two words: “Raspberry” and “Pi”.

A principal reason why people jumped ship in the years running up to Black Thursday was cost. People mock the “Apple Tax” (i.e. Apple machines costing substantially more than rival machines with equivalent hardware specifications), but it had nothing on the “Acorn Tax”. But now you can buy a machine that makes a typical RiscPC look like the Electron in comparison¹ for pocket money. And that’s getting lots of people, often driven by nostalgia, to take a look.

What can be done to cater to what is already causing RISC OS to grow?

By getting the people who visit for the nostalgia to stay. But at present, RISC OS simply can’t do what most people consider bare minimum functionality.

¹ An 8Mb RiscPC has 256x the memory of the Electron, while a 2 GB Raspberry Pi has 256x as much memory again. Obviously other factors aren’t quite that simple, but the general point stands.

Two words: “Raspberry” and “Pi”.

I apologise for putting the words in your mouth :)

But at present, RISC OS simply can’t do what most people consider bare minimum functionality.

In no particular order could you list 5 items of bare minimum functionality?

• WiFi
• Bluetooth
• Video support
• Competent and reasonably fast browser (can it do Google Docs, YouTube, Facebook…)
• Stable (apps might crash, the OS shouldn’t)

Thank you Rick, I wonder what Charlotte considers to be 5 of the important items?

FWIW I think people are working on all of those five, maybe not official in all cases.

Oh, and the browser – would that be “fast on a Beagle-BM” or “fast on a Pi4”?

Two words: “Raspberry” and “Pi”.

Yes indeed. To Rick’s list one might also add the facility to upgrade both OS and software without fuss. With Manjaro on the ArmBook it is just a click of the mouse-button and a few minutes wait while it happens; with Raspbian on the Rpi4 you have to enter

sudo apt update
sudo apt upgrade

An offline version of Wikipedia would be great.

Technically, it’s possible (the content – but photos – is free to use). It’ll probably need a modern port of SQLite as I don’t think any of the databases available in the RISC OS world can manage so much data.

Oh, and the browser – would that be “fast on a Beagle-BM” or “fast on a Pi4”?

On the Pi4. It’ll be OK for new users.

In no particular order could you list 5 items of bare minimum functionality?

1. A browser capable of viewing almost any modern website at an acceptable speed. Iris may deliver the former, but whether it can deliver the latter without far better hardware support remains to be seen.
2. Wifi without having to buy extra hardware to replace what the Pi already comes with.
3. A video player capable of watching Netflix and the like. This is something that’s tricky to set up on Raspbian, but it can be done, and it will likely be straightforward in the near future. As for RISC OS, it would inevitably require far better hardware support (including the ability to run things in TrustZone), followed by Widevine DRM approval. Without substantial financial investment, this is unlikely to happen.
4. Out of the box ability to reliably open most day to day file formats (e.g. Microsoft Word, ODT, etc).
5. Security that isn’t equivalent to a bullion depository using an honesty box.

You might argue that some of these are unnecessary (and indeed for some people they are unnecessary) but ultimately you can’t tell people what they want.

To Rick’s list one might also add the facility to upgrade both OS and software without fuss.

That reminds me – I have Windows 10 thing to resuscitate since the last automatic crap up won’t uninstall and seems to have eaten the restore point.
It’s the wife’s, otherwise I’d probably administer the last FO and install Linux.

BTW. I don’t think the update system (applications only at present) really cuts it as stable so letting it loose on the OS isn’t high on the list of “good ideas”

1. A browser capable of viewing almost any modern website at an acceptable speed. Iris may deliver the former, but whether it can deliver the latter without far better hardware support remains to be seen.

The question there is whether Linux on the same hardware can manage that, otherwise I think we’re into abuse of a deceased equine territory.

2. Wifi without having to buy extra hardware to replace what the Pi already comes with.

There’s supposed to be someone working on that

3. A video player capable of watching Netflix and the like. This is something that’s tricky to set up on Raspbian, but it can be done, and it will likely be straightforward in the near future. As for RISC OS, it would inevitably require far better hardware support (including the ability to run things in TrustZone), followed by Widevine DRM approval. Without substantial financial investment, this is unlikely to happen.

That would be integrating native access to certain hardware features that have never been looked at before or a bit of backdoor thinking. Remember the PC card in the RPC? Display the other OS in a Window

4. Out of the box ability to reliably open most day to day file formats (e.g. Microsoft Word, ODT, etc).

Interesting first choice there given the renowned inability of MS products to load files produced by other versions, but yes, file conversion/ import/export is useful.

5. Security that isn’t equivalent to a bullion depository using an honesty box.

I hadn’t realised it was that good :)

You might argue that some of these are unnecessary (and indeed for some people they are unnecessary) but ultimately you can’t tell people what they want.

I’d query number 4, but otherwise all seem reasonable candidates.

It’ll probably need a modern port of SQLite as I don’t think any of the databases available in the RISC OS world can manage so much data.

The maximum size of an SQLite database on RISC OS is restricted by the maximum file size. Depending on file system either 2GB or 4GB.

@ Charlotte

but ultimately you can’t tell people what they want.

THANK YOU! That’s in synthesis where DavidS comments (and few others) seems to be wrong to me (apologies for the judgment). It may be because of different background culture, but what I understand from their comments is the following:

“Because I (DavidS/some others) don’t like or don’t know X then nobody wants it”

That really sounds to me like telling other people what they want, which if so it’s plain wrong.

@ DavidS

Here some example:

An offline version of Wikipedia would be great. AI not so useful…

AI not so useful to YOU DavidS, but to the rest of the world it’s actually very useful to the point that AI now (in the world of professional software engineering and hardware manufacturing) is one of the most pushing for advancements and it’s re-shaping even the landscape of CPU design. You seems to like to sound knowledgable so here is one for you: Are you aware that CPUs now are back to be designed with specialised cores and not just general-pupouse ones like it has happened in the past 30 years or so? If you like this great, if you don’t well again the world is moving in a different direction (JFYI and with all the respects sir).

And then they pannic when the internet goes down in a storm, and does not get restored for a week or two. Maybe a reminder that it is also important to have local copies of there data on there computers.

In the past people panicked because the phone line was off or because a weird news was spread uncontrolled (wait… it’s still the same today lol), so no, no reminders of anything I’m afraid.

That contridicts everything else you said in this post, as most of it makes life harder, definitely not better. Though people do enjoy that stuff that makes life a bit more interesting.

Oh that’s the usual BS people used to say in RISC OS forums when they had no more arguments to respond, or trying to twist reality. Here is one for you then: RISC OS has almost ZERO tolerance to errors (yes people in this forum keep calling this with the wrong term: stability, the correct one in engineering is tolerance to faults). With the minimal tolerance to faults RISC OS has to applications crashing the OS is simply NOT suitable to make life easier.

Though yet the RISC OS userbase is growing every week now.

No, it is not actually, what has happened is caller Raspberry Pi (also others mentioned above). Raspberry Pi is a way to try both Linux and RISC OS with a very minimal investment so again CONVENIENCE (which you DavidS seems to argue with).

Now ask yourself of all the Raspberry Pi sold (millions) how many are actually running RISC OS? In other words where are all those millions of new users? In this forum it’s always the same names I see, just few, very few, new ones.

I do not want to sound rude or aggressive (so apologies if I did), but certain approaches do really recalls of a past where all we did was pushing user-base away from RISC OS.

My point of view is: we should start to listen instead of immediately shut users down, also because as you’ve seen above your point is arguable as any other point.

For example:

• I am not against RISC OS on Linux, let’s see how it goes. I however wish it would be RISC OS on RISC OS eventually, why? Because for me (and I speak only for myself) if it’s RISC OS on Linux then what’s the point? People will use Linux directly

• I am not against RISC OS kernel replacement with a microkernel. I am not sure that’s the right path because all micro kernels application in real life resulted too slow in performance compared to other approaches, BUT in a world of heterogeneous CPU architectures they may make sense again (as an example)

• I am not against RISC OS as a main Desktop, but to get there in 2020 there are few things that needs to be considered and if people keep arguing with it then I’ll start a set of video for Youtube to show how easy is to hack RISC OS and even keep the malware hidden (without showing the techniques of course) so the most stubborn against security will open their eyes

• I am not against ELF and your way to approach dynamic linking of libraries (but you must prove it works I’m afraid). I think ELF if nothing offers another layer of compatibility with the rest of the world, so to me it’s welcome, but at the same time I do not want to lose AIF and all the benefits it can have in certain applications and btw if you want a good architecture that think alike me then look at BSD

• In my personal case RISC OS is good as it is (that just my personal opinion), the only things I really can’t stand (lol) are those pieces of kernel that have been put in the WIMP (it really hurts my feelings to see that, sorry guys! lol). I think if we could clean up those things to improve RISC OS architecture, that could help a lot to improve the OS faster and better, but that is just my opinion and I am not trying to force it on others

@ Steve Pampling

Amazon Alexa, Apple Siri are starting to reshape again the OS “UI” towards an AI based UI.

So, there was me thinking they were just data mining.

Exactly, which is why if we manage to (for example) build an Alexa that doesn’t spy on people on RISC OS, then it will be a similar effect like Linux had on Windows, it will move a lot of users away from Alexa towards the RISC OS one.

However to get there first we should improve the OS to handle better security and more faults tolerance and then we can think of start working on such goals. Let’s not forget that modern software engineering it’s like a pyramid where what the end user sees and uses it’s just the top of the pyramid. And RISC OS lacks a lot of lower pieces which is why it’s so hard to build competitive software for the end user…