6502 BBC BASIC license?

First an apology for being kind of off-topic; I know this forum usually deals with BBC BASIC only in its ARM incarnation. But honestly I didn’t know where else to turn to with my question.

With that out of the way: I’m currently involved with the MEGA65 computer. The MEGA65 is a 21th century realization of one of the last commercially developed 8 bit computers (the Commodore C65, which was never marketed, only a handful of prototypes exist after the project was cancelled in 1992).

The hardware is completely open sourced; 100 developer kits were already built, the plan is to release the final machine in 2021.

Unfortunately, one of the most severe problems of the MEGA65 platform (in its current state) is its bundled programming environment. The MEGA65 team got permission from the current license holder to distribute the original Commodore ROM with the machine. And herein lies the problem: Commodore BASIC10 was already hopelessly antiquated in 1991, and it certainly hasn’t aged well. It is a nightmare of line numbers, two-letter-variable names, floating point math only, and no named procedures or functions. Quite frankly, it sucks.

Since the goal of the MEGA65 is (among others) to make experimenting with and learning to program a computer accessible and fun again (kind of like it was before computers became mainstream with OSses more and more designed to keep the users away from the innards of their machines), I made it my personal goal to bring a better programming language to the MEGA65.

Much to my delight I found what seems to be the original 6502 source code here: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/6502/

Having been a big fan of BBC BASIC for the last 20 years (and having contributed a bit or two to the world of RISC OS Software), I would very much like to port BBC BASIC to the MEGA65. The CPU of the MEGA65 is a 45GS02 – a much enhanced derivative of the 6502 –, so the original 6502 code would do just fine (at least, to have something to get started).

Since 32-bit ARM BBC BASIC is a part of RISC OS, I would like to ask politely: Who owns the original 6502 source code now? And what should I do in order to procure a license for porting and distributing BBC BASIC with the MEGA65? As I said, the project is open source, developed by a non-profit organization, so no one is making any money from it.

Many thanks in advance!

p.s.: You can find more information about the MEGA65 here: https://mega65.org

Hi Stephan,

Very interested in the Mega65 project

Are you happy to fire me an email? tom@ident-online.co.uk
Might be able to point you in a few directions.

Tom W – Wi-Fi Sheep
youtube.com/wifisheep

Who owns the original 6502 source code now?

Uh… Acorn? Olivetti? Pace? ROOL? Bob down the lane? It’s a mess. Good luck figuring that out.

so the original 6502 code would do just fine (at least, to have something to get started).

How good is the operating system? You’ll quickly find that a number of things are not actually handled by BASIC, but are jiggled around and then handed to the MOS.

To give you an idea, the three ways of opening a file:

\ =OPENIN f$ - open file for input
\ ================================
.fnOPENIN
LDA #&40:BRA LAAE9  :\ OPENIN is OSFIND &40

\ =OPENOUT f$ - open file for output
\ ==================================
.LAAE3
LDA #&80:BRA LAAE9  :\ OPENOUT is OSFIND &80

\ =OPENUP f$ - open file for update
\ =================================
.LAAE7
LDA #&C0            :\ OPENUP is OSFIND &C0
.LAAE9
PHA
JSR LAD36
BNE LAAFC
JSR LBE2B
LDX #&00
LDY #&06
PLA
JSR OSFIND
BRA LAAC2

.LAAFC
JMP L9092

They call out to OSFIND which is handled by the OS (and picked up by the filesystem).

Or the thing like A = GET to set ‘A’ to the value of a key pressed (often also used as a “Press a key to continue”), it is this:

.LAE3F :\ =GET
JSR OSRDCH
BRA LAE18

It calls the OS routine OSRDCH…

So the first question is… how good is the Mega65’s underlying OS?

That’s not to say that it can’t be done, but the less the OS does, the more you’ll have to do.

How good is the operating system? You’ll quickly find that a number of things are not actually handled by BASIC, but are jiggled around and then handed to the MOS.

Yes, I’m quite aware of that; but since there already was a C64 target (it’s even in the source on mdfs.net), it should be doable (with a few wrappers here and there to cater for the M65 kernel’s different ways of doing things). It’s obvious that graphics and sound and stuff wouldn’t work in the beginning… but it would be a start ;)

But I’m afraid I can’t really do anything until the legal stuff is figured out, so that’s definitely the bigger problem :/

Rick beat me to it regarding the OS interface…

In any case, the (Edit: Aztec) C64 BBC BASIC you refer to is not derived from the Acorn one.

I suspect Acorn granted licenses for quite a few 8bit era software/firmware and even possibly hardware but I doubt any of those licences would have included relicensing rights. So unless Acorn passed the specific IPR on to someone the IPR will be owned by MSDW holdings (Who bought Acorn Computer Group) and they won’t know it. I doubt they would be willing to transfer any rights, partially because the don’t know what they have but also they’d probably want at least a five or six digit sum to pay their expensive lawyers. It is a real pity Acorn didn’t at the time of the break up when specific bits where sold on, include ‘and all other IPR’ in one of the deals. I suspect they thought no one was interested and 8bit etc IPR wasn’t worth anything.

I’m amazed no one has mentioned Richard Russell and the little family of BBC BASIC variants.
Stuart came close by noting that the C64 BBC BASIC wasn’t derived from the Acorn version.

Stuart came close by noting that the C64 BBC BASIC wasn’t derived from the Acorn version.

In any case, the (Edit: Aztec) C64 BBC BASIC you refer to is not derived from the Acorn one.

I’m a little bit confused. I was referring to the version found here: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/BBC/Basic2.zip

In the header it says

REM > Basic2/src
REM Source for 6502 BASIC II/III
:
REM BBC BASIC Copyright (C) 1982/1983 Acorn Computer and Roger Wilson
REM Source reconstruction and commentary Copyright (C) J.G.Harston
:
REM Recognises target for: bbc, atom, system, c64
REM mos$=API at &FFxx, target$=hardware

So what is this version based on?

So what is this version based on?

I think all of those are based upon disassemblies that somebody has gone through commenting and adding named references and tidying up.

What gives it away are the labels used as branch points. They’re all addresses, rather than names.

What gives it away are the labels used as branch points.

And this line:

REM Source reconstruction and commentary Copyright © J.G.Harston

What does that mean if it doesn’t mean disassembly and putting in comments (and named references where feasible)?

The original source code was put up on Github a couple of months ago – https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=20430&p=306769#p306769

It’s a shame it is “broken” by virtue of the really weird masm syntax.

I’m curious. Given the presence of this line

BBC BASIC Copyright © 1982/1983 Acorn Computer and Roger Wilson

Who authorised Mr Harston to put the source up for public access?

The source that Stephan refers to is a reverse-engineered effort (as Rick and Clive have pointed out). In any case Roger wouldn’t have had any copyright stake as an Acorn (probably CPU Ltd.) employee.

“weird masm syntax”? Took all of five minutes to get used to, honest!

The source that Stephan refers to is a reverse-engineered effort (as Rick and Clive have pointed out).

Reverse-engineering from a binary does not negate the copyright of the original owners or their successors.
Putting in a, possibly erroneous, copyright string still doesn’t dodge the bullet.

In any case Roger wouldn’t have had any copyright stake as an Acorn (probably CPU Ltd.) employee.

I have no knowledge of the contracts that Acorn employees signed or what may or may not have been credited to individual employees.
Given the likely date on the reverse engineering, isn’t that a bit of dead-naming in the copyright string anyway?

The phrase you are looking for is clean room implementation. Someone reverse engineers the existing code, and writes a detailed design specification. Someone else who has never seen the original code, implements that specification.

The phrase you are looking for is clean room implementation.

Which this is not, or the copyright string is false/misleading etc.

What about asking Wilson?

In any case Roger Sophie!

FTFY.

“weird masm syntax”?

Yup. Doesn’t look like the 6502 datasheet. I guess it has been designed to be easier to parse?

I have no knowledge of the contracts that Acorn employees signed or what may or may not have been credited to individual employees.

Me neither, but the ROM does claim to be © to Acorn, not Wilson. That would be normal – employee rights are usually company assets if created on paid time, plus it helps keep the rights tidier especially if intending to fight infringement (the GNU uses the same logic).

Someone reverse engineers the existing code, and writes a detailed design specification.

Isn’t Oracle or somesuch trying to get the specification to be equally copyrightable as the original product, so things created from said specification…?

Sadly the OP will have to look elsewhere to find a replacement BASIC for the MEGA65. Here be dragons.

Isn’t Oracle or somesuch trying to get the specification to be equally copyrightable as the original product, so things created from said specification…?

With Oracle Corp, nothing is ruled out. In the land of the mighty bullshit it is probably even possible to claim copyright on your DNA and stop you using it without payment of the licence fee.

What about asking Sophie Wilson?

Well, Ferris, do you have a problem with Sophie’s first name?
Tell you what, I’m feeling nice, so I fixed it for you.

No, not totally nice.

Sadly the OP will have to look elsewhere to find a replacement BASIC for the MEGA65. Here be dragons.

Unfortunately, yes. But oh well, it was worth a try…

(fwiw, we asked Sophie Wilson. She said apart from non-exclusive rights to the source for ARM BBC BASIC going to Element 14, “most of the other rights, particularly all the rights to do with desktop computers, went to Castle/Pace.”, so we’re not really any wiser at this point)

If someone knowing something definitive about the rights issue wants to come forward, drop me a mail at stephan@ubisonic.de; but at this point I’m considering porting BBC BASIC to the MEGA65 a lost cause. Anyway, thanks for your help!

Unfortunately, yes. But oh well, it was worth a try…

While people were busy distracting you I said:

I’m amazed no one has mentioned Richard Russell and the little family of BBC BASIC variants.

At the time I was just trying to get a brief set of info with a link to you.
The thing is, I suspect Richard would be quite pleased with the idea of putting his developments of the original BBC BASIC onto another platform.
You’re interested in a newer version, he’s interested in widening its use.