2020 Awards poll initial discussion
61 posts, 21 voices
Vince M Hudd (116)
534 posts
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Okay, I’ve done the initial tedious bit – read through the 2020 posts on RISCOSitory to compile the spreadsheet that will eventually get fed into the programs that generate the poll. I did it slightly differently this year, in that I added a ‘count’ column to the spreadsheet – so for each item mentioned on the site, I increased the count. (Though I may have neglected to do this occasionally – I am only human, after all). I then sorted each category according to that value, and used that as the basis for my initial list of (up to) six options for each. Additionally, if any given developer/company/supplier/whatever had more than one item in the top six, only the first of their items is used so they aren’t competing against themselves in that category. In some cases, I’ve skipped over items that could go in one category because they’re also in another, to give more different things a chance. I’ve also added a couple of new categories mentioned in the discussion last time around. There is scope for more, but there’s a danger of going to far with this; while the two I’ve added are fairly clear (internet stuff, development stuff), and some additional possibilities would be as well, there’s a danger of diving into niches to create even more categories so that everyone gets a shout. So I’m going to be strict on this and limit it to the two new ones this year, and I’ll think again about this next time. (And to be fair, I feel these two categories are likely to see more frequent updates than others by their very nature.) So, to reiterate key points that I have to make in the discussion each year:
So here’s the initial list for discussion (in some cases, obviously, the software has been ported, or its been taken over or worked on by someone other than the original developers – to simplify this, previous/original developers aren’t listed) Best commercial software (initial list had 20 items)
Best non-commercial software (initial list – 87 items)
Best game or diversion (10 items)
Best internet tool (better category name?) (0 items, because I added the catgeory after compiling the main list)
Best development tool (better cat name?) (0 items, same reason as above)
Another option:
Best hardware (4)
Best Solution for backwards compatibility (same as last year)
Best new development (5)
Best show of initiative (5)
Best website or online resource (8 – six as last year, two more listed)
(Dropped Wi-Fi Sheep and Archive-online from last year. The former because Wi-Fi Sheep pop up in other categories anyway, and A-o-L because it’s just one of many mailing lists – and doing this allows me to add two items that have popped up in new items). Best publication or offline resource (7)
Best foreign language resource (1 mentioned, rest from before)
Best show or event I think this should be left as a free text entry this year, given that there was only one ‘real’ show, and one online one – but user groups have opened up meetings via Zoom. Also: Anyone who doesn’t vote for Gerph’s ROUGOL talk will probably be taken somewhere quiet for a good water boarding session. Most innovative or interesting project (3)
Best overall contributor Free text entry as before Broken cog (
That’s a full six, though the ROOL DDE one and the poor announcements one could be merged – which would leave room for one of the sillies:
So some categories currently have a full six, which some people will undoubtedly think should be changed – and some clearly have gaps. Get discussing. As usual, I will weigh up what’s said, in some cases accept it, in others challenge it, and for the rest ignore it. My final word is, er, final. GO! |
andym (447)
473 posts
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Isn’t that a CJE machine? |
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Vince M Hudd (116)
534 posts
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Yes. Just testing. (It is correct on the spreadsheet – but I wasn’t paying enough attention transcribing to here. I’ll fix it above next.) |
Rick Murray (539)
13840 posts
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This needs changed. WiFi Sheep (baaaa-bip!) will suffer because he’s competing against himself here. Maybe just have the one entry for WiFi Sheep hosting streaming for shows?
Haha. Subtle. That should be the only option. Preticked, of course. ;-) |
Willard Goosey (5119)
257 posts
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i feel that i should point out asm80 isnt really my code, i just maintain it. |
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Vince M Hudd (116)
534 posts
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Willard: Check the last paragraph before the list of initial nominations. Rick: Best show of initiative (5) Sort of. Yes. No. Maybe. I did ponder this, but AFAIK, in both cases it’s more accurate to say it was Tom + the show organisers. On that basis one sensible option would be to not mention the YouTube live streaming aspect at all for London, and just make it ROUGOL for organising an online event – thus leaving the YouTube live streaming only for the Southwest Show. That works for me. If the people involve want to clarify my understanding, that would help as well. (So I’ll leave it as is for now until they’ve commented). |
Steve Pampling (1551)
8170 posts
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Possibly even “Paolo Fabio Zaino” :) |
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Vince M Hudd (116)
534 posts
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Phew! It’s correct there – which means it’s correct on RISCOSitory as well! Another example of carelessness when transcribing things to here. I’ll fix it above now. |
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Rick Murray (539)
13840 posts
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I reckon if he got a nice shiny €1 coin for every time that was misspelt by an English speaking person, he could retire and live comfortably. ;-) [if in doubt, blame autocorrect!] |
Bryan Hogan (339)
592 posts
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Sounds sensible to me. ROUGOL did live stream the show themselves, WiFi Sheep’s stream was just a bonus! Whereas the SW Show stream was very much a Tom production. As the Most Innovative Project is lacking entries, maybe Gerph’s RISC OS Build Service could be there rather than in Best Website? The Broken Cog could sadly still include many companies websites, most disappointedly including the RISC OS Dev one :-(
:-) |
Jon Abbott (1421)
2651 posts
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Where’s the “hero worship” section? Mr Lee clearly has competition! |
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Bryan Hogan (339)
592 posts
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I think Jeffrey will still be favourite for the Best Overall Contributor award :-) Oh, and in case anyone doesn’t know what we are talking about, this is Gerph’s fabulous talk – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBtVgvJNeNQ&t=3s It did set a new record for most people “attending” a ROUGOL meeting, a record held by Sophie Wilson since 2010! I suspect Sophie will be reclaiming this crown very soon… :-) |
Frederick Bambrough (1372)
837 posts
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Is that the pub where the RISC OS fogeys hang out? Perhaps a rename for Aldershot. |
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Vince M Hudd (116)
534 posts
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Sounds sensible to me. ROUGOL did live stream the show themselves, WiFi Sheep’s stream was just a bonus! Whereas the SW Show stream was very much a Tom production. Great – I’ll make that change now. As the Most Innovative Project is lacking entries, maybe Gerph’s RISC OS Build Service could be there rather than in Best Website? D’oh! yes. The Broken Cog could sadly still include many companies websites, most disappointedly including the RISC OS Dev one :-( True – and for that matter, the length of my ‘snippets’ posts illustrates that problem is still worth a mention. I should keep these things in as static entries Fred: That would indeed make a good pub name. :) |
Andrew Rawnsley (492)
1445 posts
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Given that both were demonstrated (working) last year, I think ROD’s new TCP/IP stack and Iris browser both deserve a mention, and perhaps Pinboard 2.0 also? I think perhaps TCP/IP stack would be “show of initiative”, Iris in “Internet software” and I’m not sure where Pinboard 2.0 would go (new development?). PB2 is in public beta (ie anyone who wants it can request it). TCP/IP was shown running VNC server, Netsurf, Iris etc at ROUGOL late last year. It is expected to go into public beta next month. |
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Vince M Hudd (116)
534 posts
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Are any of them generally available yet? If not, I’d be inclined to say they’d all be a better fit for the innovative or interesting project category. (Especially the Pinboard with some of its new features). I think I made this point about the browsers last year – but the same applies to the new Pinboard and the TCP/IP stack. I’m not sure how the new stack is a show of initiative, TBH – without looking at the story behind it; did someone, off their own back, suddenly say ‘I know what RISC OS needs – a new TCP/IP stack. I’ll get that done now!’ Or was it more a case of ’there’s been a discussion of this thing, and there’s a bounty for it, I think I can work on that…’ Only one of these is really an example of showing initiative. Best new development would be a better fit if it’s generally available for people to try/use. Convince me I’m wrong. (And to repeat a point I’ve made before and in the original post this time round, if you’re trying to convince me to add something to a category, look at what’s in the category already, and if the new thing would push it over six items, convince me what must be taken off and why). Edit: For now, I’ve added Iris and Pinboard 2 to the project category, though that does mean RISC OS Dev competing with RISC OS Dev, and the TCP/IP stack to best new dev. This needs further consideration/duscussion. |
Andrew McCarthy (3688)
605 posts
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I wonder if there’s an appropriate place for DARIC http://www.dariclang.com ? |
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Vince M Hudd (116)
534 posts
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When did Daryl make the first release? I note that web.archive.org only has its first snapshot this year, at that domain and its previous URL – and at that one it only has a Windows download. This suggests its first release for RISC OS was 2021. ISTR he was demonstrating it at London (2019?), so if what appears to be the release date is correct, it would make sense in the innovative/interesting project category. Currently six items, but one – as noted above – is RISC OS Dev vs RISC OS Dev. So… discuss. |
Herbert zur Nedden (92)
37 posts
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Commercial: How about ArtWorks2 and TechWriter – the fact that there are not updates since they are good should not imply them to not be on that list. Offline: Just a note that “GAG-News” is written with a dash and will reach its 30th anniversary (with bi-monthly arrival on the doormat ever since) Broken Cog: |
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Andrew Rawnsley (492)
1445 posts
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Vince – I think the “initiative” is that it is being done without resorting to bounty etc. In other words, the two programmers decided to get on and update the TCP/IP stack, without it costing the RISC OS community anything. RISC OS Developments may have worn pom-poms and danced a bit to motivate them, although I can’t confirm or deny such an event! Pinboard 2 is available to anyone who asks for it. It isn’t in “general” release because that would mean ROOL incorporating it into the OS, which is something that happens quite late in the dev cycle (ie. replacing a stable OS component with a new one is a big step). Right now, anyone who wants to try it can load it at startup and use it. Many folks do. They just have to email me. |
Steve Fryatt (216)
2105 posts
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Surely the broken cog there is software which ships in a way that breaks any previously installed libraries, and not the libraries themselves? |
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Steve Pampling (1551)
8170 posts
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The Rusty Cog perhaps? The old
“Interesting rumours” perhaps?
Given the amount of grumbling I (and others) have done on that subject over some years (early 2000s) I’d say “reaction” rather than “innovation”.
Yes. All these shared resources belong in one area and just ONE copy on the system. |
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Steve Pampling (1551)
8170 posts
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Have you never looked at the word “beta” in the downloads? |
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Vince M Hudd (116)
534 posts
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(Edit – forgot the footnote) Replying to Herbert first… Commercial: How about ArtWorks2 and TechWriter – the fact that there are not updates since they are good should not imply them to not be on that list. My choices are first and foremost based on news published on RISCOSitory then discussed and possibly changed here, so while there having been no updates doesn’t rule them out, it means they won’t be listed initially – and it should count against them, TBH. Otherwise they’ll just dominate the list each time – and worse, we’d probably end up narrowing it down to the same six big name apps every year. The six items currently listed all have received updates, and all have appeared in posts on RISCOSitory – and all are either well used and liked, or new (or sort of, re TextEase). So to put ArtWorks2 or TechWriter forward (not both, because that would be Martin competing against Martin), you need to say which of those six has to come off to make room, and why. Non-Commercial: I know we hope for Iris but NetSurf is still there and should be in here Without checking the spreadsheet, I think NetSurf only saw a single mention on RISCOSitory in terms of updates (and that was in a Snippets post, which almost certainly means no announcement was sent to me, and I instead happened upon it at some point when I was trying to catch up on my feeds etc1). The items currently in that category all saw more mentions than that – from 2 for some, all the way up to 5 for the one with the most. However, IIRC it was because of the significance of software like NetSurf that the discussion last year included the possibility of additional categories – one for browsers, and one for other internet software. The other browsers aren’t on general release yet, so I went for a general internet stuff instead this time. It could of course go in the non-commercial category as well – it’s easy to argue it as being more important than some of the other items there – but, again, if you want me to do that, identify the item you want me to remove, and tell me why you think it doesn’t deserve to be there. I personally would suggest Willard’s port of the ASM80 cross assembler as the first thing to be displaced – sorry Willard; I included it because of the number of mentions on the site, but it’s probably only useful to a very small number of RISC OS people. BUT if I look back at the full list of 80+ items, there are a number of things that could deservedly go in as well. and HistoryFS perhaps too I had to double check that in case I’d somehow missed a post – the observant will have noticed my addition of Elesar’s WiFi+RTC HAT for just that reason. However, having done so I can see the announcement for HistoryFS was mid-Feb 2021. Offline: Just a note that “GAG-News” is written with a dash and will reach its 30th anniversary (with bi-monthly arrival on the doormat ever since) I’ve corrected the hyphen in the spreadsheet and the starting post. I did consider putting it in offline publication as well, but in the end opted for the six there at the mo.
That whole episode was notably bad, and it is deservedly there. I recognise that they’re trying to do something good, but that doesn’t excuse doing something that was, sorry, incredibly stupid. - How about putting the !SharedLibraries in here since they are a mess as all those poor suckers being permitted to try Iris know all to well Steve Fryatt’s observation on this strikes me as a more sensible angle – I’ve added it with a more generic wording (“Software supplied in a problematic way, potentially causing shared library or other conflicts.”) Or UK for doing the BRExit Brexit (the referendum result) was included for the 2016 poll IIRC, so unless I have a gap to fill with nothing more directly RISC OS related to fill it, it’s not going in again, even with that specific detail. Or whomever for the fact that there is no decent development environment compared to what other platforms offer nowadays That’s a reasonable contender, TBH. Or ROD for a slow website, not promoting RISC OS Direct and not even indicating the version and system requirements of the download (that really helps getting new RISC OS users … sure) That would fall under ‘the state of RISC OS websites’ – although the original point/wording was about how they look like they’re aimed at the 1990s, I think the overall point covers this. Then Andrew… I think the “initiative” is that it is being done without resorting to bounty etc. In other words, the two programmers decided to get on and update the TCP/IP stack, without it costing the RISC OS community anything. Oh, I see what you mean – that sounds reasonable, so I’ve moved that down from best new dev… RISC OS Developments may have worn pom-poms and danced a bit to motivate them, although I can’t confirm or deny such an event! Pictures, or it didn’t happen! Also: How exactly does one wear pom-poms? I thought they were held in the hand. (Thinks…) On second thoughts, keep those pictures to yourself! ;) Pinboard 2 is available to anyone who asks for it. It isn’t in “general” release because that would mean ROOL incorporating it into the OS, which is something that happens quite late in the dev cycle (ie. replacing a stable OS component with a new one is a big step). Right now, anyone who wants to try it can load it at startup and use it. Many folks do. They just have to email me. Okay, with the TCP/IP stack now moved, that leaves room in the best new development category for Pinboard 2 – and Iris can stay in most innovative or interesting project without there being a conflict. That also means there’s now room for Dalric in that category. And potentially one more if anyone can suggest something – now that I’m not clawing around for ideas as much because it’s a fuller list, I’ve crossed out Drag ‘n Drop (sorry Chris!) (If nothing else gets suggested, I’ll probably remove the strikeouts and keep it in.) 1 When I repeat this exercise next time, I think I’ll change the ‘count’ to a ‘score’ and award (say) 3 for anything that gets a full post or nybble (i.e. it was posted after an announcement was sent to me), 2 for a mention in a snippets (i.e. no announcement was sent to me, and I happened to spot it later), and 1 for a passing mention. So stuff where an announcement is sent to me stands a better chance of making my initial list. |
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Jon Abbott (1421)
2651 posts
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I always laugh when Vince does this yearly post and the “me too” comments start coming in. To buck the trend I’m going to advocate removing ADFFS from the list as it’s not a solution for backward compatibility – at least not until the OS opens up task switching so I can add Wimp support and have a chance of competing with Aemulor.
I thought that as well, but the trouble with the beta is it pretty much becomes the daily driver for a lot of people because of the long gaps between stable releases. Perhaps we now need an Alpha where radical changes such as PartMan, TCP/IP, Pinboard 2 etc can be added during the development cycle so they go through a proper peer review/RFC process. A core tenet of the awards should be nominees must be generally available. We don’t want to get into the habit of awarding something, and then it never see the light of day. Once they’re generally available, they’ll get their chance to be voted on in subsequent awards. |
