2020 Awards poll initial discussion

Nothing to be sorry about… IMHO if a (near) clone of CP/M’s ASM.COM is in any “best of” list, it must have been a very slow year. ;-)

Don’t get me wrong, I think ASM80 is a pretty good tool, I’ve used it a bunch for TRS-80 Model 100 programming. It’s a solid assembler. For the 8080. That uses Intel mnemonics.

I’m pretty stunned to see it appearing in this list, even in the first draft. ;-)

I don’t see the problem with the ROOL nightly betas getting much more radical. I would be fine with seeing Pinboard 2 or a half-completed TCP/IP stack.

We have stable releases, although Jon has a point regarding their infrequent delivery. I think a solution to this is that someone could create a branch from the stable code and add in any ‘critical’ tweaks, so we have a 5.28-style release with things like Pi400 support (this has effectively already happened with the Pi400 build, so the principle is there).

As far as I understand it, the person doing this doesn’t even have to be ROOL.

Funnily enough, the topic of joint betas came up at tonight’s regular ROD/ROOL meeting. You guys are nothing if not “topical”! :)

We hope we’ll be able to share more with you soon.

Funnily enough, the topic of joint betas came up at tonight’s regular ROD/ROOL meeting.

Zero travel these days.

You guys are nothing if not “topical”! :)

Not topical, so clearly … :)

Funnily enough, the topic of joint betas came up at tonight’s regular ROD/ROOL meeting.

Will this include the seemingly still in beta Iris that eludes most of us?

If it was just included in the nightly beta, it would remove the ‘support burden’ issue that’s been mentioned as we could all just support each other with it? I realise this might not be what the shareholders want, but it makes it easier for RODev, and they’d probably get a lot more feedback from the forum that they could sift at their leisure rather than being personally bombarded.

I realise I’m a new ‘returner’ but not having a browser that’s functional AND knowing that there’s a fairly stable one loitering in the background, but inaccessible, is frustrating.

That said, it’s obviously the RODev shareholders’ call?

I’m sorry if it sounds like I have a bee in my bonnet about the browser issue, but it is the one thing that means I have to unplug my Pi and turn on the Windows box every day. Which I’d imagine, if it gets my goat, it gets other people’s goats too.

The longer people need to keep doing that to do daily tasks, the more likely it is that they’ll just stop plugging the Pi back in.

@ Steve P., Vince and Rick

Thanks guys for the correction… and Rick hummmm can I blame the autocorrect too for all my typos and mistakes??? XD

@ Vince

Can I propose to include MIDIUSB please (Rick and Dave). I know it may be considered a bit of a “niche” driver… but IMHO it was one of the coolest things of 2020 in RO scene given that I am used to use RISC OS heavily for MIDI music back in the days and MIDIUSB is a big game changer on RO 5/32bit for musicians like me.

The longer people need to keep doing that to do daily tasks, the more likely it is that they’ll just stop plugging the Pi back in.

I long ago accepted that there were things that RISC OS just cannot do. Decent web browsing and useful video support were two of them. So for websites and Netflix I use my phone or a tablet.
And RISC OS? It’s my server, it’s connected to my weather station, it’s for manga, it’s for different things. ;-)

but it is the one thing that means I have to unplug my Pi and turn on the Windows box every day.

Why do you unplug one to use the other. Shared monitor?

But, yes, having this elusive browser more widely available might help the platform…

Why do you unplug one to use the other. Shared monitor?

I have a shared monitor, but both the Pi and the Mac are plugged into it all the time. It’s just a click of the remote to switch between them.

However – the monitor has developed a fault. The HDMI (3) input works perfectly; inputs 1 & 2 drop out to black for a second or two every now and then, for the first couple of minutes after switching to them – okay after that. So far…

The beast is well out of guarantee, and at 24Hz (Pi) and 25Hz (Mac) it’s technically been operating nicely out of spec all its life – it might be fine if I could get 30Hz or more out of either one of them, I’ve no means of knowing. I might even brave the change to a Pi4 to try it…

N.B. It doesn’t matter which computer uses which input: inputs 1 and 2 both give the same symptoms with either the Mac or the Pi, and input 3 is fine with either.

But, yes, having this elusive browser more widely available might help the platform…

They would need to stop it trashing Shared Library installations (and provide the frequently-suggested, but for some reason undesirable to Andrew, installer) first…

They would need to stop it trashing Shared Library installations

It doesn’t. (and this is off topic for this thread, take the FUD somewhere else)

take the FUD somewhere else

Yes, sorry about that. It was me that brought it up in the wrong place. Is there a way to do the old newsgroup “replies to” thing on here?

Is there a way to do the old newsgroup “replies to” thing on here?

Unfortunately no, otherwise the logical thing to do would be to reproduce the old c.s.a.announce setup on the announcements forum

Can I propose to include MIDIUSB please (Rick and Dave). I know it may be considered a bit of a “niche” driver… but IMHO it was one of the coolest things of 2020 in RO scene given that I am used to use RISC OS heavily for MIDI music back in the days and MIDIUSB is a big game changer on RO 5/32bit for musicians like me.

Not being musically talented, it sort of sits to one side of my attention.
However, it does strike me as a driver¹ or enabler for a new music app² and that surely must count for something in the voting stakes.

¹ Horrible business balls pun there.

Can I propose to include MIDIUSB please (Rick and Dave). I know it may be considered a bit of a “niche” driver… but IMHO it was one of the coolest things of 2020 in RO scene given that I am used to use RISC OS heavily for MIDI music back in the days and MIDIUSB is a big game changer on RO 5/32bit for musicians like me.

+1 from me. This is a major enabler of music applications on RISC OS.

Speaking of music and audio applications, how about RDSP, or has it been nominated/winner before?

http://www.amcog-games.co.uk/rdsp.htm

I haven’t yet used this one, but I think it’s really cool that we have this for RISC OS, and it’s another enabler for music and audio applications.

@Rick Murray

I long ago accepted that there were things that RISC OS just cannot do. Decent web browsing and useful video support were two of them. So for websites and Netflix I use my phone or a tablet.

Likewise here. My desk has two monitors, one being connected to a PC and the other to the ARMX6. Problem solved. :)

Sorry folks, I figured I’d leave this thread for a week to see where the discussion goes in my absence, but my schedule then got a bit hectic so I put it to one side a little longer. Several replies in one…

Jon:

I’m going to advocate removing ADFFS from the list as it’s not a solution for backward compatibility

I’m happy to do so if you really want (and I’ll cross it through after posting this) but I’m going to throw in a reverse of my normal point about if you want something added, explain what has to come off and why – if you want me to remove ADFFS, can you (or anyone) suggest something to go in its place? (Six per category is a maximum so it’s not the end of the world, but if I have six items in place it would be nice if I didn’t reduce it).

A core tenet of the awards should be nominees must be generally available. We don’t want to get into the habit of awarding something, and then it never see the light of day.

Indeed.

Willard:

Nothing to be sorry about…

Okay, I’ll drop the cross assembler and pop… what in its place? Up until the time you posted, NetSurf was being suggested – but later comments (Paolo’s suggestion, and nods from Steve P and Terje) suggest MIDIUSB. That sounds worthy… except for my lack of any memory of it whatsoever.

(Searches…)

Okay, I’ve found a forum post where Rick links to the download, and a page on RISCOS.fr linking to the same download. I’ll use Rick’s forum post as the link for it, since that includes the discussion leading to the release and therefore some context. But even that’s from 2017, so should it really be there when NetSurf has also been suggested?

Paolo:

Thanks guys for the correction

Be thankful my original typo wasn’t to make the name Paula. If I’d made that mistake, it would automatically become a ‘thing’ on RISCOSitory, forever referring to you as ‘Paula Paolo’ ;)

David S:

As there seem to be a few each year, I am kind of surprised there is not a catagory for best SceneDemo. I think we had a couple this year, did we not?

I have absolutely no idea.

Which is a big factor in why there’s no category. It’s difficult to form ideas about what to include when the amount of knowledge I have about something is sub-atomic in volume. I don’t follow any kind of demo scene, or look out for demo-related news. The most awareness I have is that the updated Iron Dignity demo popped up in my field of vision (so got a mention on RISCOSitory in the final snippets post for 2020). Beyond that… I have nothing.

Terje:

Speaking of music and audio applications, how about RDSP, or has it been nominated/winner before?

It’s been nominated before, and I think won a couple of years back. (Checks…) yes, 2018.

Being a previous nominee and/or winner doesn’t preclude it from inclusion, but I don’t think Tony released any new versions in 2020, which is why there are no specific posts on RISCOSitory in the year, and it hasn’t made my initial list.

And back to Andrew:

I still need to know who I need to give credit to for working on the TCP/IP stack.

Not sure that DARIC (not Dalric!) should be on the list, as it hasn’t been released yet. What was shown at the London Show in 2019 was a 3D library, it was only more recently Daryl started turning it into a full programming language. More details at ROUGOL next week :-)
http://rougol.jellybaby.net/meetings/index.html

Yes, I made the point there didn’t appear to have been a release in 2020 – the site linked further up thread is currently “offline for maintenance” but IIRC there were versions available for download there dating earlier this year – looking back at my comments, I think there were RISC OS and Windows downloads on that site when I looked, and only a Windows one at its previous address.

That (lack of a 2020 or earlier release) is pretty much the point of the category it’s in, though – when I posted my reply earlier, I initially clarified where there can be exceptions, and why, then decided to delete that bit. :|

Most innovative or interesting project is a category where there can be exceptions – it’s for things that may not yet (and may even not ever be) available, but we know about them and – ideally – have seen them demonstrated in some form. They look innovative and/or they look interesting.

To that end I’m pretty sure Daryl started working on DARIC during 2020. I think it was called PiBASIC at one point before he rebranded it as DARIC. My reference to the 2019 show was because I’ve assumed that the language is what his original library (from the show) sort of morphed into, but I’m quite prepared to be wrong about that bit.

It may not be widely known about amongst RISC OS users, but he has been commenting about it on Twitter – and in 2020. So in my book it qualifies.

(The name will be corrected in the opening post after I submit this one).

Which is a big factor in why there’s no category. It’s difficult to form ideas about what to include when the amount of knowledge I have about something is sub-atomic in volume. I don’t follow any kind of demo scene, or look out for demo-related news. The most awareness I have is that the updated Iron Dignity demo popped up in my field of vision (so got a mention on RISCOSitory in the final snippets post for 2020). Beyond that… I have nothing.

In general I’d got the impression that most of the non-retro RO crowd had zero interest in the demo scene, hence I’ve not bothered trying to promote anything. However if there is anyone who’s interested, there has been a bit of a resurgence in this area in 2020, both in retro and non-retro. For reference, these are the 2020 demos I’m aware of :

• Bitshifters – Back By Popular Demand : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85916
• Icebird – Edgedancer : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85682
• Icebird – Elsecaller : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85683
• Jared – Iron Dignity 2020 : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=86921
• Kuemmel – Blury : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85044
• Kuemmel – RISC OS 3DBall : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85284
• Optimus – Blocks64 : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=87127
• Optimus – Circulin256 : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=87044
• Optimus – Corona128 : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=87262
• Optimus – Fastplasm256 : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=87147
• Progen (for full transparency this is me) – 2499 : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=87167
• Progen – Reach : https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85910

In general I’d got the impression that most of the non-retro RO crowd had zero interest in the demo scene, hence I’ve not bothered trying to promote anything.

I’d argue for the best Demo of 2020 Award category or something like that. It might even be a bit of fun, voting on a particular set of programs and seeing the results :)

You can argue for it, but I’ll just quote something from my first post in reply.

So I’m going to be strict on this and limit it to the two new ones this year, and I’ll think again about this next time.

TBH, there would still be a problem next year. Noting that Sarah’s links are all at one site, I assume there are RSS feeds available, but even if I added that to my reader (and ideally something limiting it just to RISC OS stuff), it would just go unread. Because of my lack of interest. All of my RSS feeds get left unread for ages already, so adding something I’ve no interest in to increase the backlog would be counter productive.

The demos aren’t going to be separately reported to me as news (and I don’t think I’d want that) – the only reason I mentioned the Iron Dignity one on the site, as I mentioned, is because I happened to come across it elsewhere. Well, that, and it’s a name most RISC OS users of old would recognise as a game that had potential but never came to be.

There are only two ways I can see a demo category working.

One is to do it as a blank/text only entry – which I’d wager would see a ridiculously small number of entries. And if I did that, voters could put literally anything and I wouldn’t know if it’s a real demo™ without links. So I’d probably have to enforce the inclusion of a link so it could be checked. Oh joy – more work because I’d then have to go off and look at these demos that hold no interest for me. :|

The other is to just leave the category empty and let others fill it in as part of this discussion, and when you’ve all decided what the final six are, I can include them on the spreadsheet, and thence to the voting form. Even then, I feel I’d still need to check those links first (tut) – and I suspect I’d end up having to make a final decision, bearing in mind my lack of interest, about what to exclude to keep it to six.

Thinking as I type this, I wonder if a slightly different approach could be taken for demos – someone (anyone but me) could set up a site specifically for RISC OS demos, and allow people to rate them in some way.

That isn’t to say I’m 100% averse to including a demo category from next year – but I wanted to add new categories gradually, hence just the two this year, and demos isn’t something that had even crossed my mind as a possibility.

I have a problem with Python being in the Best Development Tool category.
The 3.8 release is a really significant RISC OS innovation. but it is too much of a “work in progress” to win the Best Development Tool prize.
It would get my vote in either of the Best new development, or Best show of initiative categories.

if you want me to remove ADFFS, can you (or anyone) suggest something to go in its place?

I have no idea I’m afraid, its not really an area I follow or get involved in. I don’t use any of the others in the list either.

Yes, please remove ADFFS. If/when it supports Wimp tasks so it can cover apps, we can review.