RISC OS Open: Forum: Iyonix hard drive size

Apr 8, 2021 4:31pm

I think that a little explanation is due.

My previous back up of my Iyonix, was to back up to a removable hard drive. I realized that the age of my three IDE hard drives, purchased from APDL some time ago, were very, very long in the tooth.

Looking to replace them soon bought the sad news that the vast majority of suitable sized drives were refurbished i.e. old.

By occasional use of my Iyonix I meant, switching on to upgrade to the latest !Boot and ROM soft load. (Based on 5.28 base.)

Regards Ron.

Apr 8, 2021 4:37pm

Rick Murray (539) 13840 posts

Is USB2 Speed faster than the slow Iyonix PIO?

Interesting question, keeping in mind that if it is a USB 2.0 podule you’re talking about, it will be restricted in how much data it can fling at any given time. You won’t get anything like USB 2.0 speeds (30-40 megabytes/second).

USB on a device that has native USB (pretty much any of the modern ARM boards) will fly in comparison to the podules, and definitely in comparison to PIO.
Note, however, that you may get screwed if you copy USB to USB or USB to network. Quite a number of devices (certainly all of the Pi1-Pi3 families) only have a single sole USB interface. Everything is routed through an internal hub that has Ethernet included. So copying in that way will immediately halve the available speed as it’ll be reading and writing through the same physical port attached to the processor.

But, probably still faster than anything attached to a podule… ;-)

and fit a SATA to IDE converter to it

The issue here, I believe, is that these protocol convertors don’t tend to like PIO or something, which means that one type may work without a problem while a different one may be useless.
I was running into this about 15 years ago. I’d sourced an IDE to CF interface and a 256MB CF card that I considered trying in my RiscPC.
But, then, along came a Beagle and then the Pi family and I’ve not looked back. I mean, why would I when the new hardware uses “standard” and “contemporary” storage (SD/µSD and USB)? Plus loads less power. Loads faster. And no annoying video restrictions like “big or colourful, pick one”.

Or do I modify the SATA tray to accept a SATA SSD and use some more 120GB SSD,s formatted for RO?

You say “some more”. Do you already have this working? If so, might be best to stick with something that you know works?

Apr 8, 2021 4:51pm

David J. Ruck (33) 1635 posts

I have some data on that.

The Iyonix with UDMA can to the standard 5400rpm 80B drive can do a maximum of 45MB/s read 15MB/s write (with a 7200rpm drive improves to 58MB/s read), however with PIO its only 3.5MB/s read 3.8MB/s write.

For a IDE to USB2 caddy and a 5400rpm 20GB drive the Iyonix manages 5.6MB/s read and 4.8MB/s write – which sounds better, but that’s only the maximum speed with large files, for small file and random access operations PIO is much faster than USB.

Here are the results from !HDSeed

Iyonix 80GB UDMA

Speed test carried out on ‘ADFS::HardDisc’ on Sat,18 Jun 2005.09:59:50

Produced by program ‘HDspeed’, v1.10 Jan 1995, © David Holden Iyonix XScale 600 RISC OS 5.09 80GB Maxtor UDMA Comparison with: Tandon/Miniscribe 20Mb, 65ms, ST506 Byte access test, large file sise = 8 Mb All times are in centi-seconds Read 50K sequential bytes 2.7 6622% Write 50K sequential bytes 14.4 2367% Read 500K sequential bytes 67 2765% Write 500K sequential bytes 361 962% 50 Kb file read 1,000 random bytes 13 10900% 50 Kb file write 1,000 random bytes 27 9714% Large file read 1,000 random bytes 610 1532% Large file write 1,000 random bytes 834 1887% Average random variation from baseline 4593% Block Load/Save, large file sise = 8 Mb Data transfer speed shown in Kb/Sec Save 50Kb file 6756 3328% Load 50Kb file 20833 6967% Save large block file 14787 4107% Load large block file 44521 12197% Save/load 50 Kb file 9259 3841% Save/load 512 Kb file 13298 3767% Save/load large block file 22080 6049% Average block variation from baseline 5750% Overall average variation from baseline 5133%

Iyonix 80GB PIO

Speed test carried out on ‘ADFS::HardDisc’ on Thu,02 Jan 2003.02:43:52

Produced by program ‘HDspeed’, v1.10 Jan 1995, © David Holden 80GB, Iyonix ADFS, PIO XScale 600 Comparison with: Tandon/Miniscribe 20Mb, 65ms, ST506 Byte access test, large file sise = 8 Mb All times are in centi-seconds Read 50K sequential bytes 2.1 8514% Write 50K sequential bytes 10.3 3309% Read 500K sequential bytes 58 3194% Write 500K sequential bytes 409 849% 50 Kb file read 1,000 random bytes 9 15744% 50 Kb file write 1,000 random bytes 27 9714% Large file read 1,000 random bytes 707 1322% Large file write 1,000 random bytes 1338 1176% Average random variation from baseline 5477% Block Load/Save, large file sise = 2 Mb Data transfer speed shown in Kb/Sec Save 50Kb file 2994 1474% Load 50Kb file 3246 1085% Save large block file 3878 1077% Load large block file 3543 970% Save/load 50 Kb file 2232 926% Save/load 512 Kb file 3180 900% Save/load large block file 3644 998% Average block variation from baseline 1061% Overall average variation from baseline 1240%

Iyonix 20GB USB2

Speed test carried out on ‘SCSI::HardDisc5’ on Fri,27 Jun 2014.14:21:03

Produced by program ‘HDspeed’, v1.30 May 2007, © David Holden USB2 20GB Filecore Comparison with: Tandon/Miniscribe 20Mb, 65ms, ST506 Byte access test, large file size = 8 Mb All times are in centi-seconds Read 50K sequential bytes 76 235% Write 50K sequential bytes 150.9 225% Read 500K sequential bytes 783 236% Write 500K sequential bytes 1558 222% 50 Kb file read 1,000 random bytes 744 190% 50 Kb file write 1,000 random bytes 1496 175% Large file read 1,000 random bytes 1358 688% Large file write 1,000 random bytes 2452 641% Average random variation from baseline 326% Block Load/Save, large file size = 8 Mb Data transfer speed shown in Kb/Sec Save 50Kb file 2659 1309% Load 50Kb file 1416 473% Save large block file 4887 1357% Load large block file 5688 1558% Save/load 50 Kb file 1851 768% Save/load 512 Kb file 4853 1374% Save/load large block file 5872 1608% Average block variation from baseline 1206% Overall average variation from baseline 737%

Apr 8, 2021 6:12pm

Rick Murray (539) 13840 posts

So USB is marginally better than PIO, faster with large files and sucks at little bits (I’d imagine a lot of overheads).

UDMA beats all. I’m guessing this is directly baked into the southbridge to get those sorts of speeds. :-)
What device is it, in the Iyonix?

Apr 8, 2021 7:27pm

Ron Briscoe (8801) 33 posts

@Rick, I have changed the previous IDE hard drive in the Iyonix for a SSD formatted for Risc OS Same size (112GB) when formatted from its stated 120GB,

Why I was asking the question was to find out how best to back up now. Thanks to David I intend to go the Removable SATA hard drive carrier way. I can then easily back up to a disc ready to swap if necessary.

The Iyonix is my oldest machine, but I have a fondness for it. Why we have even been drinking together, although it turned out to be a non drinker and I even had to pay for its round.

Regards Ron.

Apr 8, 2021 7:47pm

Dave Higton (1515) 3526 posts

Ron: there’s another way to back things up. You could use a 2.5" portable rotating drive with USB interface. I recently bought three 2TB from Amazon at about 40 quid each. Format for RISC OS. Then you can use my DBack app (and companion DRest) from my web site: https://davehigton.me.uk which I think you’ll find will back everything (or everything you want to). You could set it going and come back later.

I use two of those drives as NAS with OpenMediaVault hosted on a Raspberry Pi 3B+, which I use for backup over the LAN. The speed freaks will tell you it couldn’t possibly be fast enough, but I can assure you it is – for me, anyway.

If you ever actually need to restore a backup, make sure you have a copy of DRest that you can get at directly, on the backup drive.

Of course, if you do decide to go for caddied drives, DBack and DRest will work just as well.

Apr 8, 2021 8:46pm

Ron Briscoe (8801) 33 posts

@Dave.H, More to think about, not for the Iyonix for that only takes about 10 minutes to update both the !Boot and softload, but certainly for the Titanium which has a 233GB SSD and a 1863GB spinning rust drive.

I will certainly look at DBack and DRest. Does DBack do incremental backups like Chris Johnson’s excellent SyncDiscs?

Regards Ron.

Apr 8, 2021 9:46pm

Dave Higton (1515) 3526 posts

Does DBack do incremental backups

No. It does allow you to include or exclude a list of files/folders, though.

Apr 9, 2021 8:33am

Colin Ferris (399) 1814 posts

Would the backup work with fat32 and USB portable HDs – a copy of Fat32FS would need to available for complete disasters.

Iyonix hard drive size

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Apr 8, 2021 4:31pm Ron Briscoe (8801) 33 posts	I think that a little explanation is due. My previous back up of my Iyonix, was to back up to a removable hard drive. I realized that the age of my three IDE hard drives, purchased from APDL some time ago, were very, very long in the tooth. Looking to replace them soon bought the sad news that the vast majority of suitable sized drives were refurbished i.e. old. By occasional use of my Iyonix I meant, switching on to upgrade to the latest !Boot and ROM soft load. (Based on 5.28 base.) Regards Ron.

Apr 8, 2021 4:37pm Rick Murray (539) 13840 posts	Is USB2 Speed faster than the slow Iyonix PIO? Interesting question, keeping in mind that if it is a USB 2.0 podule you’re talking about, it will be restricted in how much data it can fling at any given time. You won’t get anything like USB 2.0 speeds (30-40 megabytes/second). USB on a device that has native USB (pretty much any of the modern ARM boards) will fly in comparison to the podules, and definitely in comparison to PIO. Note, however, that you may get screwed if you copy USB to USB or USB to network. Quite a number of devices (certainly all of the Pi1-Pi3 families) only have a single sole USB interface. Everything is routed through an internal hub that has Ethernet included. So copying in that way will immediately halve the available speed as it’ll be reading and writing through the same physical port attached to the processor. But, probably still faster than anything attached to a podule… ;-) and fit a SATA to IDE converter to it The issue here, I believe, is that these protocol convertors don’t tend to like PIO or something, which means that one type may work without a problem while a different one may be useless. I was running into this about 15 years ago. I’d sourced an IDE to CF interface and a 256MB CF card that I considered trying in my RiscPC. But, then, along came a Beagle and then the Pi family and I’ve not looked back. I mean, why would I when the new hardware uses “standard” and “contemporary” storage (SD/µSD and USB)? Plus loads less power. Loads faster. And no annoying video restrictions like “big or colourful, pick one”. Or do I modify the SATA tray to accept a SATA SSD and use some more 120GB SSD,s formatted for RO? You say “some more”. Do you already have this working? If so, might be best to stick with something that you know works?

Apr 8, 2021 4:51pm David J. Ruck (33) 1635 posts	I have some data on that. The Iyonix with UDMA can to the standard 5400rpm 80B drive can do a maximum of 45MB/s read 15MB/s write (with a 7200rpm drive improves to 58MB/s read), however with PIO its only 3.5MB/s read 3.8MB/s write. For a IDE to USB2 caddy and a 5400rpm 20GB drive the Iyonix manages 5.6MB/s read and 4.8MB/s write – which sounds better, but that’s only the maximum speed with large files, for small file and random access operations PIO is much faster than USB. Here are the results from !HDSeed Iyonix 80GB UDMA Speed test carried out on ‘ADFS::HardDisc’ on Sat,18 Jun 2005.09:59:50 Produced by program ‘HDspeed’, v1.10 Jan 1995, © David Holden Iyonix XScale 600 RISC OS 5.09 80GB Maxtor UDMA Comparison with: Tandon/Miniscribe 20Mb, 65ms, ST506 Byte access test, large file sise = 8 Mb All times are in centi-seconds Read 50K sequential bytes 2.7 6622% Write 50K sequential bytes 14.4 2367% Read 500K sequential bytes 67 2765% Write 500K sequential bytes 361 962% 50 Kb file read 1,000 random bytes 13 10900% 50 Kb file write 1,000 random bytes 27 9714% Large file read 1,000 random bytes 610 1532% Large file write 1,000 random bytes 834 1887% Average random variation from baseline 4593% Block Load/Save, large file sise = 8 Mb Data transfer speed shown in Kb/Sec Save 50Kb file 6756 3328% Load 50Kb file 20833 6967% Save large block file 14787 4107% Load large block file 44521 12197% Save/load 50 Kb file 9259 3841% Save/load 512 Kb file 13298 3767% Save/load large block file 22080 6049% Average block variation from baseline 5750% Overall average variation from baseline 5133% Iyonix 80GB PIO Speed test carried out on ‘ADFS::HardDisc’ on Thu,02 Jan 2003.02:43:52 Produced by program ‘HDspeed’, v1.10 Jan 1995, © David Holden 80GB, Iyonix ADFS, PIO XScale 600 Comparison with: Tandon/Miniscribe 20Mb, 65ms, ST506 Byte access test, large file sise = 8 Mb All times are in centi-seconds Read 50K sequential bytes 2.1 8514% Write 50K sequential bytes 10.3 3309% Read 500K sequential bytes 58 3194% Write 500K sequential bytes 409 849% 50 Kb file read 1,000 random bytes 9 15744% 50 Kb file write 1,000 random bytes 27 9714% Large file read 1,000 random bytes 707 1322% Large file write 1,000 random bytes 1338 1176% Average random variation from baseline 5477% Block Load/Save, large file sise = 2 Mb Data transfer speed shown in Kb/Sec Save 50Kb file 2994 1474% Load 50Kb file 3246 1085% Save large block file 3878 1077% Load large block file 3543 970% Save/load 50 Kb file 2232 926% Save/load 512 Kb file 3180 900% Save/load large block file 3644 998% Average block variation from baseline 1061% Overall average variation from baseline 1240% Iyonix 20GB USB2 Speed test carried out on ‘SCSI::HardDisc5’ on Fri,27 Jun 2014.14:21:03 Produced by program ‘HDspeed’, v1.30 May 2007, © David Holden USB2 20GB Filecore Comparison with: Tandon/Miniscribe 20Mb, 65ms, ST506 Byte access test, large file size = 8 Mb All times are in centi-seconds Read 50K sequential bytes 76 235% Write 50K sequential bytes 150.9 225% Read 500K sequential bytes 783 236% Write 500K sequential bytes 1558 222% 50 Kb file read 1,000 random bytes 744 190% 50 Kb file write 1,000 random bytes 1496 175% Large file read 1,000 random bytes 1358 688% Large file write 1,000 random bytes 2452 641% Average random variation from baseline 326% Block Load/Save, large file size = 8 Mb Data transfer speed shown in Kb/Sec Save 50Kb file 2659 1309% Load 50Kb file 1416 473% Save large block file 4887 1357% Load large block file 5688 1558% Save/load 50 Kb file 1851 768% Save/load 512 Kb file 4853 1374% Save/load large block file 5872 1608% Average block variation from baseline 1206% Overall average variation from baseline 737%

Apr 8, 2021 6:12pm Rick Murray (539) 13840 posts	So USB is marginally better than PIO, faster with large files and sucks at little bits (I’d imagine a lot of overheads). UDMA beats all. I’m guessing this is directly baked into the southbridge to get those sorts of speeds. :-) What device is it, in the Iyonix?

Apr 8, 2021 7:27pm Ron Briscoe (8801) 33 posts	@Rick, I have changed the previous IDE hard drive in the Iyonix for a SSD formatted for Risc OS Same size (112GB) when formatted from its stated 120GB, Why I was asking the question was to find out how best to back up now. Thanks to David I intend to go the Removable SATA hard drive carrier way. I can then easily back up to a disc ready to swap if necessary. The Iyonix is my oldest machine, but I have a fondness for it. Why we have even been drinking together, although it turned out to be a non drinker and I even had to pay for its round. Regards Ron.

Apr 8, 2021 7:47pm Dave Higton (1515) 3526 posts	Ron: there’s another way to back things up. You could use a 2.5" portable rotating drive with USB interface. I recently bought three 2TB from Amazon at about 40 quid each. Format for RISC OS. Then you can use my DBack app (and companion DRest) from my web site: https://davehigton.me.uk which I think you’ll find will back everything (or everything you want to). You could set it going and come back later. I use two of those drives as NAS with OpenMediaVault hosted on a Raspberry Pi 3B+, which I use for backup over the LAN. The speed freaks will tell you it couldn’t possibly be fast enough, but I can assure you it is – for me, anyway. If you ever actually need to restore a backup, make sure you have a copy of DRest that you can get at directly, on the backup drive. Of course, if you do decide to go for caddied drives, DBack and DRest will work just as well.

Apr 8, 2021 8:46pm Ron Briscoe (8801) 33 posts	@Dave.H, More to think about, not for the Iyonix for that only takes about 10 minutes to update both the !Boot and softload, but certainly for the Titanium which has a 233GB SSD and a 1863GB spinning rust drive. I will certainly look at DBack and DRest. Does DBack do incremental backups like Chris Johnson’s excellent SyncDiscs? Regards Ron.

Apr 8, 2021 9:46pm Dave Higton (1515) 3526 posts	Does DBack do incremental backups No. It does allow you to include or exclude a list of files/folders, though.

Apr 9, 2021 8:33am Colin Ferris (399) 1814 posts	Would the backup work with fat32 and USB portable HDs – a copy of Fat32FS would need to available for complete disasters.