ctrl X

Hi

Can someone (rsprowson?) put castle/RiscOS/Sources/Lib/RISC_OSLib/rlib/c/txtedit back to the previous version. The changes affect not only edit but SrcEdit too, which I use to program. I’ve used ctrl X to delete for what seems all my life while programming and I’m too old to change now.

To claim that it’s a style guide change doesn’t make sense to me as the menu on page 38 is for clipboard style editing (ctrl V isn’t paste in Edit its move and that hasn’t been changed).

I live in hope that it will be changed back.

How has it changed?
I’ve been waiting a long time for RISC OS 5 to fall in line with the standard of:
CTRL X delete to clipboard
CTRL C copy to clipboard
CTRL V copy from clipboard
Trying to retain the old way will put off many new to RISC OS users and also those returning, who are now used to the above.
Not having it in !Edit is one of the main reasons I don’t use a RISC OS 5 computer as my main computer.

It just changes ctrl X to ctrl K

It just changes ctrl X to ctrl K

Very odd. CTRL-C, CTRL-X and CTRL-V are standard elsewhere – why do such a non-intuitive change?

Ctrl-K is the standard RISCOS shortcut for ‘Delete’ and Ctrl-X is ‘Cut to clipboard’.

I think that Edit / SrcEdit don’t support a ‘clipboard’ as such (I don’t use them myself so I’m not sure), which would explain why they don’t support ‘Cut’.

FWIW I don’t like Ctrl-K for ‘delete’ either – but it is a different operation to ‘Cut’ so using Ctrl-X for delete is arguably wrong.

Edit uses a perfectly acceptable cut copy move paradigm. As it doesn’t use a clipboard it can do what it likes. Ctrl k is only necessary for the clipboard paradigm so that you can delete without changing the clipboard. By all means implement an XCVK clipboard model in edit ,no objection to that, but if you don’t do that leave the current paradigm alone.

The problem with ctrl k in Edit is that you have to take your hand off the mouse to delete. It’s right hand select right hand delete instead of right hand select left hand delete.

The problem with ctrl k in Edit is that you have to take your hand off the mouse to delete.

?? Left hand, little finger on K, thumb or index finger on the right hand control key.
Regular habit from work, frequently when I have the phone handset in my right hand – hands-free use comes in when I need to use the mouse and key combinations.

BTW the oft quoted ctrl-alt-del being something to stop one-handed triggering/use also fails on the same basis. I thought at first the wifes small hands might fail to stretch, but she’s fine and that’s hands as small as the average teenager.

Edit is an extremely long standing program with an established idiom. Not one I’d choose, but it’s established.

One therefore cannot just change it and expect everyone to be happy.

It is hardly rocket science to provide an option of the old clipboardless operation (and the keypresses that used) and the new clipboard operation (and its keypresses).

It is even acceptable to default to the new idiom as long as there is a switch to revert to the old one. I’m no fan of Edit, but one should never change other people’s UI destructively. Add to it, but don’t remove any of it.

?? Left hand, little finger on K, thumb or index finger on the right hand control key.

Some of us are left-handed

Some of us are left-handed

Now that leaves me even more puzzled for two reasons:
1. It’s just a different finger comnination on the right hand
2. I was originally purely left handed but now ambidextrous and of the two lefties I know at work I’m probably the least able to switch hands. Cricket is most definately a left only.

I do agree with nemo though – an option to revert, but default to innustry-stannit.

Despite wanting edit changed back I don’t agree with having the option to change back. For me the beauty of srcedit/edit is simplicity due to the lack of options. I don’t want it turned into zap/stronged. Now if a clipboard model is implemented I don’t want the option to use the present system – I’m quite prepared to change for a well thought out change. It’s one or the other not a botch.

Just my 1.25 pence…I’d agree with nemo.
The main reason for me using RISC OS now is that I’ve been hacked off with using a linux desktop for the last few years. Just look at the gnome 3 fiasco for a great way to piss people off.
“Add to it, but don’t remove any of it” – thumbs up!

Unfortunately you only hear about the people who moan – like me :-) Things need direction not a configuration option for every change for fear of upsetting people – simplicity is a good thing.

‘Simplicity’ is something working straight out of the box.

‘Simplicity’ is not being prevented from doing something else.

That’s ‘Applethink’.

I make no judgement as to which idiom should be the default. I feel very strongly that ninjas should not be able to visit in the night and steal functionality away, because they think they know better.

>I make no judgement as to which idiom should be the default. I feel very strongly that ninjas should not >be able to visit in the night and steal functionality away, because they think they know better.

Well said that man. I fully agree that the original !Edit functionality should be maintained for those that want it to work that way. Part of the attraction of RISC OS for many of us is its diversity, and the fact that its not like Windows or Apple.

Ralph

I feel very strongly that ninjas should not be able to visit in the night and steal functionality away, because they think they know better.

How about ninjas that clone in the night and fix something that was always incorrect…

Having said that, ^K to delete and ^X to cut, isn’t the result (within the editor) pretty much the same?

Plus, for those coming from afar and those used to everything else having ^X to delete is annoying!

Having said that, ^K to delete and ^X to cut

On the assumption that you cut and never paste, the effect is the same.

As a user that flips from system to system, Windows, Linux, switch command lines that are just as different as they can be(work) and add RO at home I’m continually using the wrong command or key shortcut so a bit of consistency might help.

Having said that, ^K to delete and ^X to cut, isn’t the result (within the editor) pretty much the same?

Yes, provided !Edit don’t get clipboard support. Because then it get interesting if a user tries the old way of marking text and copying with ^C.

I think all would agree that for new users and those who regularly use other OSes, the ‘standard’ clipboard idiom should be the new default behaviour for Edit. However, what has caused controversy is the total removal of a keypress for the older ‘persistent selection’ idiom.

Messing with ctrl codes just sidesteps the real issue: Edit doesn’t support the clipboard, and it really really should. Once it does, it should also have the option to use the old persistent selection idiom with its traditional ctrl keys.

Having said that, there’s a number of problems with Edit’s UI that ought to be fixed – there’s a reason why most seasoned users employ Zap or StrongEd instead.

^X for cut isn’t a disaster you can always undo if you use it by mistake. So really you are cutting to the undo buffer :-).

I would like someone to say that they don’t know how to use the global clipboard model and because this idiom has totally defeated !edit style of editing it should be banished from the kingdom. Does anyone even use it in zap or stronged – I’m assuming they have the choice.

I can’t be certain but I seem to remember the !edit style xcv being around on other systems before the clipboard model appeared but its all a dim and distant memory. I can’t see Acorn inventing it.

I would miss ^V though if the clipboard is implemented without drag and drop as on clipboard systems I tend to move things around with a mouse. Does anyone else worry that when moving text that after the text has disappeared with ^X that it won’t reappear with ^V

Come on can someone change this back. I’m bored with changing it myself by recompiling the sources every time I update the roms. It affects both editors that I use – edit and srcedit.

How do I get access to the sources to change it back myself?

I would like to put in a request for the DELETE key to delete backwards rather than forwards in those few places where it exhibits this aberrant, Windows-like behaviour. Lots of applications have got this sorted out – DELETE deletes to the left and COPY/END deletes to the right but I keep getting annoyed by END jumping to the end of the line or document. Castle messed this up when the Iyonix appeared but, thankfully, decent editors like !Zap work correctly.

I would like to put in a request for the DELETE key to delete backwards rather than forwards in those few places where it exhibits this aberrant, Windows-like behaviour.

Use backspace delete for that action, delete therefore gives an easy alternate direction.
Sorry, but the fact that both keys did the same for ages on RO is no excuse for reverting to the non-standard (in world terms) behaviour.

Lots of applications have got this sorted out – DELETE deletes to the left and COPY/END deletes to the right but I keep getting annoyed by END jumping to the end of the line or document.

Having the copy/end key delete is not only non-intuitive it has actually had me cursing for so many years I lost count.

Castle messed this up when the Iyonix appeared but, thankfully, decent editors like !Zap work correctly.

Your view perhaps, however I was rather grateful that Castle introduced a consistent standard. Editors having a configuration to change to a quirky version will keep some people happy.

I would suggest that the reversions to 1980’s Acorn keyboard maps would confuse the hell out of new users. Since there are more instances of this style than just windows what you label as “Windows-like” is more accurately expressed as “Non-Acorn”.
Do you really want a system that is different just because it can be, or would it be better for the keymaps to match expectations and the ease of use of the system then keeps the new user doing things with RO.
Otherwise the keymap becomes a defense against new users entering the fold.

I’m sure if you use RISC OS as your only or primary system, these changes are probably quite annoying.
However for those used to using other systems, switching between them and RISC OS can prove to be cumbersome.
I think it says a lot that Apple, Windows, and the common Linux window managers standardise on Ctrl/Command C, V, X plus the Delete/Backspace behaviour. Thankfully the days of stuff like ^K C are behind us. Maybe time to standardise RISC OS to follow what everybody else uses?

No problem with riscoslib being changed to a clipboard model – I’ve thought of doing it myself – I’d then still use ^X. My objection is that just changing ^X to ^K doesn’t make Edit compatible for new users and doesn’t make it compatible to old users either. [ 18 ] has become a new expletive in these parts.