Returning to RISC OS with a Pi?

Hello all

I hope it’s ok to post this here. I’m thinking of returning to RISC OS, partly out of nostalgia, through a Raspberry Pi setup – I had an A3010 while I was at school and loved using it for homework and playing games like Elite, Populous and Speedball 2 in particular!! I also liked the fact that I had a machine that wasn’t ‘mainstream’, and I guess I have a hankering to have that feeling again, having used Windoze computers since around 2001 or so. I guess I’m a regular user, not a techie or programmer type (though I’ve always been interested in doing some of this – might be too late to learn!!), so I’d like some input on the following, if it’s no trouble:

I have a young daughter and want to introduce her to the concept of computers properly, instead of the ‘it does what I want out of the box so I don’t need to know how it works’ attitude that MS and the like want us all to have. I loved using RISC OS when I was a teenager, and I would love to support the platform in some meaningful wy – this seems like a good one.

Any help or comments would be more than welcome!

Thanks

Stuart, Leeds

> if get a Pi, what’s the best version of RISC OS to use? Should I buy the SD Card, or is the download version newer?
I use the download version without problem. You can apply a few tweaks to adapt it to a bigger SD card. Not easy, but fun.

> how much could I still do that you might call ‘usual’ usage, i.e. word processing, random net surfing, any games etc? – if I do want to learn some basic programming, is RISC OS a good platform to do this on, and where would I start?
NutPi provides very usefull softwares for a good price. Web browsing is not fantastic, but OK. There is not a lot of games, but ports are possible (call to action).

>I have a young daughter and want to introduce her to the concept of computers properly
There are two ways:
learn to use an office suite and to be a good citizen on the web: consumer view → use a PC.
learn to talk to a computer and make it manage and transform information → use whatever you like.

For the second option, RISC OS is OK, and the BBC Basic still a good option.
Python could be one too, even on RISC OS, if someone (you? call to action 2) keeps the package up to date.

The good and bad point about RISC OS is that there is a lot of room to play.

Have a nice day.
David

might be too late to learn!!

It’s never too late to learn. I’m in my sixties, and I enjoy learning new stuff – yes, it’s always difficult to some extent, but the rewards outweigh the difficulties.

I hope I never stop learning.

There is also the Wakefield RISC OS club, which is on the first Wednesday in every month.
http://www.wrocc.org.uk
I missed this months due to the wonderful stomach bug that is doing the rounds :-(
Be great to see some more new blood and new input.

FYI Populous, speedball and elite all work on RISC OS (using the ArcEM)

As regards teaching children, my kids are just as happy on RISC OS, Windows, Linux or Android.
Allowing a wide use of technology allows people to understand the underlying concepts and makes people actually think what they are trying to do rather than just hammering together pretty word/powerpoint documents that have no use to anyone.

That said I’m possibly about as hardcore techie as it gets, so my perspective is perhaps not mainstream.

As regards SD Cards, there are a few options:

1) Download and create your own (it’s not really that difficult, and the Pi builds were really good when I was using them)
2) Use a commercially supported version there’s RComp
http://riscpi.co.uk/r-comp-support-scheme-for-raspberry-pi/

And I believe CJE do one as well

The advantage of a commercially supported one is you get a fast and large SD card and phone support, whereas the standard one is a fixed size.
The disadvantage is you get to play less ;-)

I’ve got a pandaboard from RComp after I got my Pi, so I have both a commercial and a FrankenFudge version which I keep up-to-date from ROOL.
So I get to play and use the later software, and if I stuff it up (which I haven’t yet, totally) I can recover easily enough.

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. I think I will take the plunge and get a Pi, perhaps buy the ROOL Pi SD card (provides a little cash to the guys making this happen) and play with it a bit before attempting to put the latest version on.

@Dave Higton: I agree completely, and I will have a go at learning some new skills, is it worth starting with BASIC and moving on to other languages like Python etc. once I have a working knowledge?

Basalt looks a nice little extension to basic (or that’s what I seem to remember), you may want to cast your eyes over that it looks rather nice.

I’d completely forgot ROOL did a Pi card, ***embarassed***

is it worth starting with BASIC and moving on to other languages like Python etc. once I have a working knowledge?

IMHO, yes. BASIC is very approachable and built into all RISC OS machines, which means it’s very easy to send your programme to someone else – it’s an easy interchange basis.

All languages have their strengths and weaknesses, their adherents and detractors.

Thanks for the info all, one of the things I always liked about the RISC OS community is the speed of reply and willingness to help that people show. It’s one of the things that tempted me to come back and see what’s happening here :)

Hi Stuart,

I just thought I would put my thoughts in:

If you are thinking of using BASIC, do so, its VERY easy to use, my daughter started using it from 7, and my 6 yo son has done a little work in it.

I have used Reporter and Basalt Basalt Manual These would be very nessicary for you, reporter for debugging and Basalt for extending it (dynamic arrays, explode/implode from strings etc)!

I have used BASIC to produce a decent program, so no reason to move off of it, I won’t.

It is worth seeing what suits you. I still prefer BASIC to C – I’m having to use it under linux, and I can say it’s like knawing my own leg off to remove my show, instead of BASIC’s style of untying my laces… So each to their own!

My daughter, has stated a preference to using Impression Publisher to word for creating homework… My version is only 26 Bit and needs Aemulor Pi But there is Ovation Pro which should work with the Pi.

Also don’t forget Artworks and EasiWriter (docx support) MW Software

For net surfing, NetSurf is your friend, this is already installed on your Pi Card.

For games try RComp and JASPP

RISC OS now has two store like apps for discovering other programmes/games !Store and !PackMan, both on the Pi Card.

For all other old RISC OS apps/games ArcEm

Hope this Helps

Michael

If you are thinking of using BASIC, do so, its VERY easy to use

Indeed. The language, as supplied, has a lot going for it.

I still prefer BASIC to C – I’m having to use it under linux, and I can say it’s like knawing my own leg off to remove my show, instead of BASIC’s style of untying my laces… So each to their own!

I thought that for years but then one day, C just sort of “clicked” in my head.

BASIC is better to begin with because when it fails, it will fail where it fails. That sounds like gibberish, I know, but the thing with C is that the code you run is abstracted from the code you write by the compile/link phases, which can make it that much harder to track down problems. Add to that, the compiler’s propensity for dumping out a scary number of errors most of which are nonsense (for example, if you have one ‘}’ too many, it might read the extra one as the end of a function, and it will then fault everything ELSE in the program from that point on that doesn’t make sense in the expected context – the real error is a ‘}’ too many, the rest are just the compiler being too dumb to shut up).

The benefit of C, however, is that there are a good selection of libraries around. You don’t have to tweak and poke memory blocks to do things (well, you do, but it is wrapped up in the sense of being elements of a structure, so not only is it nicer to write, but it is self-documenting). Another benefit is that, as compiled code, it runs a lot faster. Give me any database sort algorithm written in pure BASIC and I can demonstrate the exact same code in C zipping along. When I was a C newbie, I had a bad bubble sort which did a lot of memory farting around. On an ARM2 (8MHz, no cache) the version written in BASIC took a shade over 25 seconds to perform. The exact same (very lame) code in C did the job in about half a second.
The final benefit of C is that it can interact in module space. You can write OS modules in C. You can’t do that in BASIC.

At any rate, start your kids off with BASIC.

has stated a preference to using Impression Publisher

I hatednever really liked Impression. It, and OvationPro are both capable decent packages. I have nothing specific against Impression other than it just didn’t “feel” right to me. They both do much the same thing, in much the same way, but I prefer OvationPro.
Don’t ask for specifics, this is probably the same sort of nonsense as why I use Zap and hardly ever touch StrongEd. Zap “feels” right.

But there is Ovation Pro which should work with the Pi.

Yes, OvationPro works on the Pi. This is a demo version – download it and give it a whirl. See if you like it.
If it whinges about ColSup on start-up, the update is here (but this might affect Beagle/Panda rather than Pi).

An extra benefit – if you stay away from freaky stuff like Kanji (or like 鬼束ちひろ if you are reading on non-RISC OS), there is a version of OvationPro for Windows that is mostly¹ file compatible so documents can be moved between systems quite freely.

¹ Generally, the Windows version is “better” because it strives to be as compatible with RISC OS as possible; as such it can work with sprite and draw graphics, plus it supports the four common RISC OS fonts (Corpus, Homerton, Sassoon, and Trinity). Provided you don’t use special fonts, pretty much anything you can do within RISC OS will work on the Windows version.
Unfortunately the same is not true in reverse – for RISC OS doesn’t have mature enough support for Unicode, plus lacking native support for various sorts of image files (IIRC, JPEG works, BMP doesn’t, and so on).
That said – these are very specific cases. Asides from my Japanese song lyrics, I have passed loads of documents back and forth between Windows and RISC OS without crisis. It is flexible, and while the OvationPro API under Windows is a bit alien to the platform (it tries to behave like RISC OS!), to have the same software behaving in the same way is, frankly, brilliant. I can pick whichever system appeals to me at the time (ie, netbook if I’m going to be a lazy fart and sit in bed ;-) ) without worrying about being tied to something that will only be useful on a PC. Furthermore, despite its tiny size, it is a very versatile product. I have lots of stuff on this netbook – Microsoft Works, OpenOffice, StarOffice… but when I want to knock out something, such as something to print and iron on to a T-shirt, I turn to OvationPro. I can look at a blank page and say “I want this here and that there and it to be like this” and OvationPro just does it. It doesn’t start wizards, it doesn’t complain about <random bogus excuse> and it doesn’t imply “no, you aren’t permitted to do something complicated”… it just does it. Which is quite a breath of fresh air compared to many Windows packages (my favourite being Word’s over-enthusiasm to repaginate entire documents, incorrectly, for reasons known only to itself – well, that was Word97, the last one I ever really used, so maybe they fixed that? or maybe it is worse?).

In short, if your world is split between two operating systems, I thoroughly recommend OvationPro.

I thought that for years but then one day, C just sort of “clicked” in my head.

I wish it would in mine. No I’m not too old to learn (not dead yet) and I will persist, when I have time and inclination.

BASIC is better to begin with because when it fails, it will fail where it fails. That sounds like gibberish, I know, but the thing with C is that the code you run is abstracted from the code you write by the compile/link phases, which can make it that much harder to track down problems.

Is there a simple debug that can be switched on to indicate where things started to go t*** up?
So far when I’ve looked at things I’ve resorted to dropping compiler errors into a google query and trying to follow the sometimes cryptic responses I find.
e.g. as a test of my setup I’ve run through a recompile of the John Duffell CLI utils and three needed slightly more than just a recompile with 32 bit switches in the GCC compiler (I do have the Norcroft on a ROOL card but sitting here at a laptop running RPCEmu is easier than the chillier locale of the Pi¹,Beagle and RPC)

Add to that, the compiler’s propensity for dumping out a scary number of errors most of which are nonsense (for example, if you have one ‘}’ too many, it might read the extra one as the end of a function, and it will then fault everything ELSE in the program from that point on that doesn’t make sense in the expected context – the real error is a ‘}’ too many, the rest are just the compiler being too dumb to shut up).

PERL CGI comes to mind for some reason.

re. OvPro – I started with Ovation, migrated to Impression when Ovation development stalled and Beebug had’t relinquished the rights and then switched back to OvPro. Frequent stuff these days is work related and even Word² 2003 causes me to curse regularly, brief experiences with the newer Office suite have taxed my knowledge of anglo-saxon derived words.

¹ Pi plus NutPi
² A rhyming word denoting waste products sometimes seems apt, particularly for the recent revisions.

I wish it would in mine.

I’m sorry I can’t help you. Literally, one day I was fiddling around with Norcroft C on an A5000 and TurboC on an ancient PC trying the same things on each. After a lot of looking in books and headscratching, I had a eureka moment.

I have, however, firmly resisted C++ and all this Object Oriented stuff. I like assembler, so maybe I think too much like a machine to get the point of OO?

Is there a simple debug that can be switched on to indicate where things started to go t*** up?

Generally, you should strive to have code that compiles without warnings. You can cast to get rid of warnings such as “implicit narrowing cast” if you assign a “long” (which is 32 bits under RISC OS) to a SWI register which is an array of "int"s. Technically long→int is an implicit narrowing, but under RISC OS both are 32 bits, so the message is just an annoyance. Something like r.r[0] = (int)longnum; ought to make it clear to the compiler that this is intentional.

Then, when t*** start waving in the air, just look at the first few lines and ignore the hundred screenfuls of gibberish following.
Often it will be something like {blah} expected but found '{meh}' or some other message regarding expecting something but found something else; or misplaced '{' at top level.

If your programming environment supports Throwback, double-clicking on the error message should take you to the line (in your editor) where the failure occurred.
Note that this may not be the line that failed. If it looks correct, check the line above, and the line above that, etc.

So far when I’ve looked at things I’ve resorted to dropping compiler errors into a google query and trying to follow the sometimes cryptic responses I find.

If you are using the ROOL DDE, look at the C/C++ guide from page 321 (actual page 330) onwards. It lists the messages you are likely to see along with an explanation of what each means.
For GCC – Google will be your best bet, certainly.

FWIW my favourite error, classed as a serious error, is: '...' must have exactly 3 dots :-)

even Word 2003 causes me to curse regularly, brief experiences with the newer Office suite have taxed my knowledge of anglo-saxon derived words.

I’ll take that as a “things didn’t get better”, then, shall I?

Thanks to Michael, Rick and Steve for the comments regarding where to start with programming – I think I’ll begin at BASIC and go from there, this way probably suits me best as a complete novice :)

Software info is very much appreciated too, and it looks like NutPi is a must have.

I’ll take that as a “things didn’t get better”, then, shall I?

Apparently it was a redesign to make it easier for the less techno-capable.
It ends up demonstrating the old maxim that if you redesign something so that even an idiot can use it you stand a good chance of making something that only an idiot can use.
It seems this is a thing MS have mastered and some.

An extra benefit – if you stay away from freaky stuff like Kanji (or like 鬼束ちひろ if you are reading on non-RISC OS)

Or reading on RISC OS with a recent version of MPro! ;)

OK, I’ve ordered my Pi and also purchased the ROOL RISC OS Pi card and NutPi too. Anticipation begins now :)

Hi Stuart,

Let us know how you get on.

Hi All,

Thanks again to those who’ve taken the time to reply to my posts here. I received my Pi just before Christmas. I got the cased Model B from CPC with their dedicated PSU which cost me around £40 in total, I also ordered the RISC OS Pi card and NutPi, but as they may well not reach me for a week or two yet, I couldn’t wait that long and burned my own image onto a card (RC11 from the Raspberry Pi site) following the instructions given here and on the RPi site.

Having never done this before, I was a little cautious about knackering the card I got, but everything went smoothly and, after hooking the Pi up to the living room TV, much to my wife’s annoyance, I got the system booted within seconds and for the first time ever looked upon the beauty of RISC OS on a 32" HDMI screen! Needless to say I was the only one in the room who appreciated it.

I’ve played about a bit, as a basic user, found a 1GB USB stick and put some freely available software on it to transfer from the laptop. Now, my last experience of RISC OS was (I think) 3.6 on an A7000 about 8 years ago, so it was an amazing thing to me to be able to plug a USB stick into the Pi and see the icon come up on the iconbar, and be able to open and read the files pretty much instantly. As I’ve not got a USB hub yet, this did involve unplugging the keyboard and copying the files over, then renaming things etc. afterwards, but it all worked seamlessly.

I downloaded Jon Abbott’s ADFFS and Zool, and soon found myself jumping around killing bees and collecting sweets as I’d last done in about 1994 on my A3010 – a machine my mum bought for me, the Learning Curve pack which at that time 20 years ago cost £765 – here I am doing it for less than £50, and enjoying all these other improvements that have been made to the OS since I last used it!

A big thanks and well done to all at ROOL and any others involved, to get this to happen. The ability to run RISC OS on this excellent little machine has got me interested in computing again for the first time in a number of years. I’m even going through the BASIC tutorial/book included with the OS, and learning how to do new things with it! My ambition is to learn how to program with this machine, and being able to start this in RISC OS makes me feel like a kid again – it’s so exciting! :)

Computers are tools. But sometimes, computers are magic too. Happy new year :)

Just received the Vonets VAP11G wireless bridge, configured on my laptop and attached to my Pi – enabled internet, put in the primary server details and reset. Now typing this while wirelessly connected, from NetSurf!! Awesome

Great :-)
You could also use a 3G dongle btw with !CommCentre
http://www.thomas-milius.privat.t-online.de/indexE.htm