MathGreek font

Hello

I tries running !ChartDraw, but it request the MathGreek font.

WHere can I find it?

Thanks

I think it is from Computer Concepts Impression D.T.P software. If you cannot obtain it, I will get my old Acorn A3000 computer down from the attic to transfer it to my Pi so I can email it to you. I am sure someone else will say if it is copyright.

Hello Peter

Thank your offer.

I sent you an email.

Cheers

Isn’t MathGreek part of TechWriter, and therefore still very much copyright Icon Technology and/or MW Software?

The font included with TechWriter is MathPhys. I think MathGreek might have come bundled with CC’s Equasor or perhaps their Formulix.

It will still be copyright someone, then.

Unless CC (or XAT, or whoever now owns those bits of Impression/Formulix) have stated that MathGreek is free to share around, you still can’t email other people copies just because it can’t be bought any more.

“you still can’t email other people copies just because it can’t be bought any more.”

I agree with you entirely which was why I put in the caveat about someone else informing us if it was copyright. The trouble with RISC OS is that copyright is one of many things that are difficult for newcomers to ascertain. My offer was predicated on the memory of an article I read somewhere (apdl/riscworld?) that it was one of several new fonts included by Risc OS for their Select 4 scheme to add to the range of fonts started by Acorn. It can also be downloaded for free for Windows O.S. users.
Here was a new forum member trying to run a program that kept asking him for an arcane font so it seemed a good idea to help him, given that it was unclear to whom the font belonged. I no longer use my purchased copy of Impression Style so am happy to post him the floppy discs if he sends me a self-addressed envelope. I will also delete the font from my barely-used Acorn A3000 hard drive. I appreciate that it remains the intellectual property of the copyright holder but since one of the ex-ROL Ltd directors is a frequent seller of second-user RISC OS software on Ebay, I do feel that I am acting within the spirit if not the actuality of the law.

The trouble with RISC OS is that copyright is one of many things that are difficult for newcomers to ascertain.

Most things will be copyright — the question is what licence is applied by the copyright holder.

Here was a new forum member trying to run a program that kept asking him for an arcane font so it seemed a good idea to help him, given that it was unclear to whom the font belonged.

A better question might be to ask why ChartDraw is requesting the MathGreek font…

I do feel that I am acting within the spirit if not the actuality of the law.

In this case you probably are.

However, I’d include a couple of caveats. First, not everyone thinks before copying files to other users, and I’ve seen stuff requested in other forums that isn’t anywhere near as ‘dead’. Second, once we’re seen to be visibly ‘pirating’ old software, we’re much less likely to get old developers on side — either to return to the fold or just to release their legacy source code as open-source.

I might be slightly jaded on this, having wasted several months last year sorting out the aftermath of some of my software being bundled into the early RISC OS image for the Pi without permission and in breach of the licence. However, I think we’re much more likely to get helpful responses from developers of ‘dead’ software (eg. Pluto, which is now open-source) if they see the platform’s users respecting their licences as they stand and therefore see a ‘point’ to opening up dead code for future development by others in a legitimate way.

Clearly where that old source code has been lost (eg. Eureka), then it won’t help. But you don’t know what other code such developers or publishers might have lying around that could be useful.

Sorry – only just caught up with this. Steve is correct in querying why ChartDraw is asking for the MathGreek font. I think the short answer to fix this is to go into the ChartDraw application folder and delete the choices file which may be in there (if choices have been saved then there may be a file in Boot:Choices as well, in the CJohnson directory). It should then start up with Trinity as default font.

In general this looks to be something I have screwed up big time. A few years back now my original Iyonix terminally expired. I thought I had recovered all the source code to all my software. However, what I have now realised is that the only source code I have is for a development version that was only half finished. When ARMv7 arrived I simply recompiled what I thought was the source and re-released it. I now see that there are a number of (proposed) features that appear to be present but which will not work 8( The current version wouldn’t make use of a symbol font such as MathGreek even if it was available.

What I have been doing is a rewrite of ChartDraw although it has some way to go before a release makes sense. I guess I should now go up a gear to speed up the process. Sorry for the confusion caused. My only (lame) excuse is that I did not think anyone used ChartDraw any more (no feedback for some years now).

The trouble with RISC OS is that copyright is one of many things that are difficult for newcomers to ascertain.

Not at all. Copyright for RISC OS is like copyright for YouTube, or anything else.

In a nutshell: If you did not create it (hence own the copyright) DO NOT ASSUME YOU CAN GIVE A COPY TO ANYBODY unless there is a CLEAR indication that this is acceptable.

In specific – GPL, BSD, EUPL, and other such “free” licences will require this to be clearly stated in the documentation and sometimes in the program itself with varying degrees of tactlessness.
If it does NOT say, assume you cannot.

It is tricky in the case where a specific piece of software is required for the maintenance of a piece of hardware. An example here would be the HCCS harddisc upgrade for the A3000. The formatter is not likely to be required much, but when it is, you need it in order for the hardware to remain useful.
My personal feeling is that it is “more acceptable” to distribute copies of software to make older hardware work, than to distribute old applications themselves. However, I wish to clarify very clearly that it is MY opinion here.
Certainly one should not consider such a thing until any sort of “official” channel has been exhausted. You’ll won’t find a legit copy of the HCCS formatter on-line for the HCCS site is no longer (and neither is HCCS Survivors). On the other hand, if you have a Simtec IDE card – their formatter is still on their site.

Here was a new forum member trying to run a program that kept asking him for an arcane font

It seems to refer to that in the config file.

However – upon start up, it says that MathGreek was not found (internal error) and that Trinity.Medium has been substituted. Perhaps MathGreek has a purpose. I don’t know, it seemed to make a pie chart when I asked it with some dummy data.
To make the error stop recurring – click on the Choices… option of the ChartDraw icon bar menu; then click on SAVE.

I tried all of the examples, and nothing looked peculiar, so I’m not sure what the MathGreek is used for.

[I’m still wondering why there is a module for basic Wimp operations – are those sorts of things painful to do with ABC?]

It can also be downloaded for free for Windows O.S. users.

If true, that would be an interesting quirk. Though, free for one does not necessarily imply free for another. Copyright can be like that. ;-)

I appreciate that it remains the intellectual property of the copyright holder but since one of the ex-ROL Ltd directors is a frequent seller of second-user RISC OS software on Ebay, I do feel that I am acting within the spirit if not the actuality of the law.

Hmm… Wasn’t it ruled legally valid that a person can resell software provided that erase all copies that they have? We’re running into the double quirk of copyright and licencing; but be aware that all that is said in the licence is a dumb attempt at a landgrab¹.

we’re much less likely to get old developers on side — either to return to the fold or just to release their legacy source code as open-source.

Certainly. Although it seems in some cases there is a big gulf between what people think is a good idea, and what actually comes to pass.

bundled into the early RISC OS image for the Pi without permission and in breach of the licence.

And that is an example of the sort of problems we face. While I am more likely to take the attitude of “free advertising”, it is your right, Steve, to feel differently. At the very least, as an ongoing member of the community, it is a bit disrespectful.
Although, sometimes these issues can sometimes be an issue in and of themselves. For instance, if I remember correctly – StrongEd is a part of the Pi image, while Zap is not. As a person who prefers Zap, I think it is a shame that it is not there standing alongside StrongEd. Will new people realise that it even exists?
[I cannot check my image, I copied all my usual crap over first chance I got!]

Everybody will have their own take on this, and while some may be lackadaisical, others will be offended.
It is correct to look for the origin and ask directly first of all. If the font came from Impression, even though Impression is ages old, that doesn’t necessarily mean it is “abandonware”. Impression itself is long forgotten. Its legacy, however, is still continuing. Ever heard of a bloke called Richard Keefe? I would guess he is the person to ask nowadays. Try looking him up on Google, or maybe asking if you see him demoing ImpressionX at a show…

¹ Example: Most licences state that reverse engineering/decompilation is illegal (not true) or forbidden. Actually, it is permitted by EU law in certain specific cases. Likewise attempts to relocate jurisdiction of the licence to obscure parts of the world will be frowned upon by local justice. In addition, in the saner parts of the EU at least, any licence terms and conditions that were not presented to you prior to installation (for a free product) or prior to purchase (for a paid-for product) can be ignored for shrinkwrap licences are invalid, especially the ones that tell you you can’t get your money back if you opened the product, but won’t disclose the terms until the product has been opened. And my favourite – most licences state that if one or more term(s) are invalid, this does not affect the rest of the licence. The caveat being that if it does not state this, an invalid term can annul the licence in its entirety. There is, of course, a caveat to that caveat – if the licence is invalid, that licence was probably your right to use the software.
You might be seeing why most people just go blah-de-blah and skip over the licence. This was neatly demonstrated by a software retailer claiming your immortal soul in the terms and conditions: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/15/retailer_claims_souls/
However, using the software without bothering to read the Tc&Cs is a different thing to redistributing the software in such a way. The former makes you a soul-less dummy. The later gives you a cute eyepatch and a parrot on your shoulder. Trust me, that parrot eats a lot…

I was not going to add any more to this thread as copyright has already been discussed at length on this forum in the fairly recent past. I do feel the need to say something about Rick’s dismissal of my statement Re: “The trouble with RISC OS is that copyright is one of many things that are difficult for newcomers to ascertain,” however. It is not clear who owns the rights to MathGreek and I only wanted to help a newcomer overcome a glitch.

I do not condone the passing on of programs that do not clearly state they are freeware to be shared without prejudice. Offering up a replacement font that presumably had the necessary permissions from the font’s original copyright holder to be part of !ChartDraw at its inception is not quite the same thing I think. By a similar token, I remember sending Rick a basket of !Maestro tunes that I downloaded from somewhere with the same caveat about copyright a while back when he wanted to test his midi setup. I don’t remember this offer being refused because we didn’t have the original owner’s permission to share them. The tunes could really only ever be listened to on a once-only basis in any case as the “Crazy Frog” ringtone sounds positively lyrical in comparison :)

Hi!

It wasn’t a dismissal – more a hint that there is nothing special about the copyright of RISC OS programs. Indeed, as happens everywhere in the world, there is “what the law says” and what is actually done by most people. ;-) For example, when I updated to iOS7, I certainly did not bother to read forty pages of licence three times (iOS, App Store, iCloud) and one might wonder if, showing the licence after installing the update! with no warning of such changes prior and no way to revert to iOS6, if such is even tenable in the EU. Anyway, no, I didn’t read it all. Likewise, it doesn’t bother me much if you offer a font to somebody. But we probably shouldn’t be seen to be engaging in such behaviour publicly!
As you will notice, I did provide a pointer to the most likely person to ask re. the font. Richard Keefe.

I, too, agree that removing MathGreek and replacing it with something else ought to be to the detriment of the program, but it looks like Chris suggests above that it wouldn’t have made any difference. Which explains why testing with the demo files would not have shown anything to be amiss.

As for the Maestro tunes, that is a more interesting case for while somebody created those files, I rather suspect many are in themselves a technical infringement of copyright, the “original owner” in this case being the composerrecord label – although how anybody could mix up Erasure with an imitation played on WaveSynth-Beep is beyond me. Hehe, actually one of the songs (Pet Shop Boys) is used for testing. It has a repetitive bass line which, for the life of me, I cannot get to play in time.
What is wrong with Maestro that it cannot play in time on a 700MHz processor?! I will need to fire up the RiscPC and see how it fares on that. More on this in another post, another day.

What is wrong with Maestro that it cannot play in time on a 700MHz processor?!

The relevant item is probably how the time sync is done rather than the speed of processor.
Playing with the cruched basic could be fun, for a certain twisted view of “fun”