What does Select have that we lack?
Rick Murray (539) 13839 posts |
Regarding TB, isn’t it written in C as a sort of overlay between the application and the low level Wimp calls. Perhaps pointing this out may attract somebody proficient in C to look to tweaking a few things – as I can imagine some might otherwise have been put off imagining a wall of impenetrable assembler. ;-) I’d look at it myself, but I’m a total newb when it comes to the Toolbox. Never ever used them.
No. However, there may come a time when an ARM (or OS) revision makes them exhibit problems (indeed, dating from 2003, are they ARMv7 safe?) and in that eventuality, our only recourse will be to remove them and downgrade to the current versions – risking breaking every application that uses them overnight. Ideally, what we should be aiming for is having nothing in ROM that we don’t also have the sources for – isn’t the DNS resolver pretty much the only current offender?
The licence with the software. Because usefully, the web site licence states “You may be granted additional rights, which will be specified in the accompanying Software or documentation.” so it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume therefore that the licence supplied with the software also counts – moreso as there appears to not be a restriction on supply in the licence contained in the archive, so before anybody could hold you in breach of the ROLtd website licence, they’d first need to demonstrate that you actually downloaded it from ROLtd’s site and did not obtain the archive from somewhere else (even “sneakerware”). |
Rick Murray (539) 13839 posts |
Mmm, my Japanese audio course box slid onto the top of my keyboard as I was logging in, so I’ve now discovered that Shift-F11 in NetSurf toggles the display of element bounding boxes… |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8170 posts |
Missed that. So the stuff is distributable, but as you point out with no development it’s of limited interest.
I have had similar discoveries about Firefox on the laptop – assisted in my discovery by furry person requesting sustenance. Should have taken notice when he patted my hand once, and then twice and then three times. |
Steve Drain (222) 1620 posts |
I do not think that would happen with the 2003 set. Softloaded TB has been common for much of its history – think UnplugTBox. I appreciate your point about newer processors.
Ideally, yes, but how idealist can we afford to be? Could we end up with ideals intact and no RISC OS? ;-)
Of course. The the other argument is a red herring smelling of false controversy. I have a copy of the archive downloaded from the ROL site many years ago. Under the licence I can give a copy to anyone. That it is identical to the file on 4QD’s site is immaterial. I mentioned Basalt earlier, and I did prepare a download with the 2003 TB included because of that licence, but abandoned it. |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8170 posts |
Excuse me? It was a genuine question. 1 t’aint a lion. |
Frederick Bambrough (1372) 837 posts |
Why does it have to be about speed? What about feel? In the same way one can open rather than run an application by introducing a delay. |
Rick Murray (539) 13839 posts |
Fair point – however this is encouraging people to depend upon better versions that will likely never be further updated. I just think that for nicer features now we’re heading towards a crisis tomorrow. Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.
Given we have had numerous serious and important changes in the world of RISC OS, and we have lost software and developers with each, is it wise to encourage a situation where this could potentially occur again?
Sorry, that’s the ardent followers of the other branch. When their hardware dies and CJE/eBay can no longer provide replacement parts, or it becomes uneconomic, then their choice is what? Here? RISC OS 5? The source almost completely available and it works on a variety of ARM devices. So long as somebody has the source and the DDE to build it, RISC OS will continue. I think the crowning achievement was the port to the Pi as that was a massively fundamental change in mini ARM boards – and the capabilities with low cost mean they are plentiful. Now and for the future. I’m sure they’ll be around (eBay etc) for many many years to come. Plus they’re static parts – no batteries to worry about. If you are concerned, you could buy one now and store it to use in a decade’s time… This version of RISC OS will continue so long as there is interest. All the more reason to look to exorcising anything for which there are no corresponding sources. Without those, fixing issues that may arise on newer processors is somewhere between difficult and impossible; especially as it is compiled C code in the case of the Toolbox so it may not even read like something a person would have written if they were using pure assembler.
Exactly.
The situation is, of course, a lot more complicated than that. But then, most legal things are… |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8170 posts |
It was an assumption that it was more convenient / speedy. As I said earlier though, I simply don’t see the point in the extra mouse work when you have to start hitting the keyboard to do the rename anyway.
Sounds to me like the features that have appeared in various other OS’s that I particularly dislike, e.g. defaulting to single-click to run. |
Frederick Bambrough (1372) 837 posts |
What about feel? In the same way one can open rather than run an application by introducing a delay. I thought double click & hold to open an application was RISC OS 5. Did I add a util? (Ah, that’s how to double quote) |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8170 posts |
Non-default option in Filer configure. |
Gerald Holdsworth (2084) 81 posts |
In answer to your question, Rick, on why I (in particular) have an original RiscPC over the newer Pi….well, I’ve been asking that myself over the past few days. |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8170 posts |
Did I misunderstand something somewhere? I thought 6.x was the bug fixed version of the pre-release (Select) scheme 4.3x |
Chris Mahoney (1684) 2165 posts |
I’m 95% sure that it’s the default (at least in 5.21/5.22). Edit: I’m glad that I didn’t say 99%; it’s not the default after all! I don’t remember configuring that, but I just did a fresh install in RPCEmu and sure enough, it isn’t the default. |
Gerald Holdsworth (2084) 81 posts |
Did I misunderstand something somewhere? I thought 6.x was the bug fixed version of the pre-release (Select) scheme 4.3x I find that 4.39 works better than 6.20 in my case – my SCSI devices are not ‘seen’ under 6.20, and my (ageing) USB card also doesn’t work under 6.20. |
Theo Markettos (89) 919 posts |
4.39 is Adjust, which was a ROM-ised version of the softloaded continuous-development Select scheme. I think 6.0 was a version bump to ‘beat’ 5.xx, but 6.something had more major changes particularly related to the graphics stack (including native support for VPod and Viewfinder). I think it was the graphics changes which may have caused compatibility issues with some software. (I have no direct experience as I’ve not used 6.xx) |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8170 posts |
OK, I’ll take your word on that. I have to say that most of that happened in a period when I all but stopped using RO and largely ignored the tiresome arguments. The dev details in the ROL stuff probably disappeared in the noise. ROL stuff was irrelevant anyway since the only machine I wanted to upgrade was the Iyonix. |
Fred Graute (114) 645 posts |
@Fred Any other small things are also not the same e.g. rename a file by slow double-click… Ah, thanks, should have remembered that. I never liked the delay though, it was too easy for the second click to be just a bit too early. It was an initial click with Adjust swiftly followed by a Select click for me. @Colin
If I were any good at C I would but alas I’m not. I agree with you that it would be good to move the RO 5 version forward. Getting it up to the level of ROL’s 2003 release would be nice and as Steve Drain has pointed probably not too much work. Question is, who’s going to do it. |
Colin (478) 2433 posts |
At the very least I think we need a wiki or something listing the bugs and missing features of each toolbox module. Saying bring the toolbox up to the ROL standard is meaningless to me – how can someone fix bugs they don’t know about. Then someone can tackle a particular module and not make the whole process seem too daunting. |
GavinWraith (26) 1563 posts |
I should like to see the C sources of the toolbox, were that permitted. |
Rick Murray (539) 13839 posts |
+1 As a non toolbox user, all I really know is that something leaks memory and there are bugs. ;-) With specifics, there would be a defined goal. |
Rick Murray (539) 13839 posts |
Gavin… Uh… https://www.riscosopen.org/viewer/view/castle/RiscOS/Sources/Toolbox/ (^_^) [or did you mean the ROLtd version?] |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8170 posts |
Gavin might like to try a friendly conversation with Aaron at 3QD. And before anyone suggests it, no I’m not doing a wind up.1 If I had the talent to do anything with the sources I’d do the talking myself. 1 War is over, if you want it… Time to build a peace. |
Rick Murray (539) 13839 posts |
Just saw this on the RISC OS Six information page:
How likely is this to occur? I tried restarting ResourceFS in the CLI and the system aborted (at &FC1481E4, MessageTrans). I have found the RISC OS Select change logs. So… It is for later releases than the modules available in the 2003 download. The versions in the 2003 download are given in bold, so anything after was fixed later on. There are… many bugs in Toolbox, it would seem. :-/ Toolbox – 1.87 (2006)1.63 (13 Jun 2001) Corrected to use CLI RESDIR.
Window – 2.091.64 (13 Jun 2001) Changed to use RESDIR from CLI. ToolAction – 0.280.20 (13 Jun 2001) Changed to use CLI RESDIR. Menu – 0.510.37 (13 Jun 2001) Changed to handle new amus RESDIR on CLI. IconBar – 1.261.19 (13 Jun 2001) Changed to use RESDIR from commandline. ColourDbox – 0.320.20 (13 Jun 2001) Tidied up the resource path. ColourMenu – 0.320.21 (13 Jun 2001) Corrected resource location after amu update. DCS_Quit – 1.221.10 (13 Jun 2001) Fixed up use of RESDIR. FileInfo – 0.270.19 (13 Jun 2001) Corrected to use RESDIR from CLI. FontDbox – 0.320.19 (13 Jun 2001) Corrected to use RESDIR from CLI. FontMenu – 0.330.23 (13 Jun 2001) Corrected usage of RESDIR to the command line. PrintDbox – 0.300.16 (13 Jun 2001) Changed to use CLI version of RESDIR. ProgInfo – 0.250.17 (13 Jun 2001) Changed to use CLI version of RESDIR. SaveAs – 0.290.18 (13 Jun 2001) Changed to use RESDIR from CLI. Scale – 0.260.16 (13 Jun 2001) Changed to use RESDIR from CLI. TextGadget – 0.94Saving the best for last… Get ready for it… 0.20 (25 Sep 2001) (retagged) Removed resources path in Makefile. (phew!) While there is a lot of unimportant rubbish in there (exporting definitions, wibbling headers, etc), there are some show stoppers. I’m seeing the words “leak(age)” and “corruption” way more than I’d like to in release code. I’m wondering if we should fix the Toolbox, or rewrite it from scratch, only this time, properly. :-P |
GavinWraith (26) 1563 posts |
No.
Never used CVS, nor Subversion. FTP is what I am used to – no typing in of commands, just drag from one window to another. So, hold my hand. What commands do I utter to get CVS to do its thing? I tried clicking on the Subversion repository is here but it was too busy. |
Chris Mahoney (1684) 2165 posts |
The easiest way (in my opinion) to get the existing code is to download a Source code archive (not the CVS repository archive as that’s intended to be used with a CVS server). |