What does Select have that we lack?

Thanks Chris. That was what I wanted. Just as well that Plusnet has reset my ADSL line, so I was getting 240kb/s. It was only 40kb/s earlier in the month. We were promised FTTC by the end of March but it has not happened yet.

@ Rick

That’s an excellent piece of research, and pretty well answers Steve P’s question, I think. ;-)

All toolbox modules should now work correctly if ResourceFS is restarted.

How likely is this to occur? I tried restarting ResourceFS in the CLI and the system aborted (at &FC1481E4, MessageTrans).

This is a very long-standing problem. I once had a discussion with JF about this when I was writing my RFSFile module, especially the problems it leads to with MessageTrans. There is a Service Call protocol that all modules registering files in ResourceFS should follow, but very few did then or do now. My modules do, but it is really a waste of effort when any single module failing to could crash the system. I am not surprised that JF took the bother to do things ‘correctly’.

[perhaps ResourceFS is, therefore, another module that should refuse to die?]

Perhaps. I can see an unlikely problem with that, when a updated soft-loaded copy of ResourceFS is to replace the Rom version.

I’m seeing the words “leak(age)” and “corruption” way more than I’d like to in release code.

Those are the sorts of problems that at least Fred G and I have found some work-arounds for, and why it would be nice to have the equivalent of the 2003 set.

What’s even worse, having a brief read of the above, there appear to be some crowd pleasers present in the current “good” (2003) version of the Toolbox, as there has been quite a bit fixed/extended since that release.

The work that JF put in produced some really valuable extensions. I really like the integration of ImageFileRender.

I’m wondering if we should fix the Toolbox, or rewrite it from scratch, only this time, properly. :-P

Rambling anecdotally, I recall first encountering the Toolbox shortly after it was released. I bought the manual and acquired ResEd with the version of Charm released by David Pilling – the only other way was with the full C package at a deterent price. Having only BASIC and elementary Assembler then, I could not see my way to actually writing anything with it.

I was, however, very into OOP at the time and I wrote a replica of the Toolbox in BASIC with true classes; it even had non-dektop classes, such as files, but did not have gadgets. That used my Basil module, and was called Basilisk, but like many systems produced by enthusiasts it was hopelessly complex. Even so, I started to rewrite the whole thing with module support, called Pesto (Basil>Pesto, geddit!), but put that aside when I got the idea for Basalt.

Initially Basalt had nothing about the TB in it, but to me it seemed obvious that if BASIC were to integrate with the Wimp it would have to be through the TB. The challenge of writing a complete parser of the TB in assembler was ‘interesting’, but it did give me a very good insight into its design, but also its problems. All this was more than a dozen years ago so details are hazy, but the source has some notes. I am pleased Rick found the change file, because trying to make a coherent report of the problems would have been daunting.

My assessment is that the TB is very well designed and there would be no benefit in starting again from scratch. But, barring a miracle of co-operation, if someone skilled could take that change file and apply the fixes to the old source it would be most valuable.

Martin Bazley compiled a list of features RISC OS Six users wanted about a year ago. It may have been in the news groups. I’m sure someone can find it.

One missing feature that often annoys me is no XPIN. Details here
Also any network changes don’t need a reboot in RISC OS Six.

Martin Bazley compiled a list of features RISC OS Six users wanted about a year ago. It may have been in the news groups. I’m sure someone can find it.

I recall the effort, but I think we could probably put together a better list by reading the feature set as above.
Martin had the usual problem of negativity from the other side of the fence¹ which was rather trying his patience and slowing everything down.

¹ Some here too

Martin Bazley compiled a list of features RISC OS Six users wanted about a year ago. It may have been in the news groups. I’m sure someone can find it.

csa.misc

csa.misc (link)

Which came up with:

So, the summary of definite, clearly-defined changes so far:

* Internal:
– Firewall.
– EDID.
– ImageFileConvert clone.
* Wimp:
– Selectable text in writable icons.
– Rearrangeable window furniture.
* Filer:
– Double-click renaming.
– Thumbnail display.
* Applications:
– Waste bin.
– Image viewer.
– Clipboard support in Edit, Paint, Draw, etc.

Anything else?

and from that list of 10 items there are already two to strike off, and no-one mentioned keyboard Filer shortcuts, possibly because some of the ones covering regularly used functions are not implemented on intuitive key combinations.

The item listed as "waste bin should really have listed as “recycle bin” because of the proper restore.

Not wishing to knacker peoples business in third party utils but the recycle should be integrated.

Oh and add integrated SysLog as that came later in the discussion.

So basically if there are more features the RO6 users either don’t use them, don’t care about them being there or not, or just didn’t answer the question.

Edit: Probably best tick off those above ASAP and bundle in others that people haven’t covered.
Note – also mention of multiple boot selections. They said softload or ROM but I think that should really be multiple version boot and multiple user configuration (hard to tell the difference if you go deep enough.)

I do not know whether anybody recalls FastBasic for the Atari ST. I guess it was inspired by BBC Basic, as it had a built-in 68000 assembler. But it also had quite an object-oriented toolbox-like approach to the desktop. Objects had a tree-structure, but, unlike our toolbox, leaf objects could be code.

So basically if there are more features the RO6 users either don’t use them, don’t care about them being there or not, or just didn’t answer the question.

Almost by definition few RISC OS Six users will be inhabiting these Forums. But you have to start from somewhere.
With my two added:
XPIN
Network setting changes immediately effective

That makes 12 so far.

EDIT: ‘Updated TOOLBOX’ should be in the list.

I found on 28/10/2013 Martin posted a longer list than above.

Martin wrote:
This seems to be more or less all I’m getting, so I’ll work it up into a
page on the ROOL wiki (with far more detail than the short summaries
given here) RSN.

• Internal:
  – Firewall.
  – EDID.
  – ImageFileConvert clone.
  – BootLog, and SysLog enhancements.
  – Startup menu.
• Wimp:
  – Selectable text in writable icons.
  – Rearrangeable window furniture.
  – Shutdown confirmation.
  – Move opened menus to the left at right edge of screen.
  – Adjust click on switcher opens Configure.
  – PC Delete.
  – Change desktop font size.
  – Put !Configure back in Apps.
  – Faster opening of very long menus.
  – Shaded icons take background colour into account
• Filer:
  – Double-click renaming.
  – Thumbnail display.
  – True numerical sort order.
  – Display sort order in title bar.
  – Filetype menus (customisable) for ‘Set type’.
  – Toolbars.
  – Per-directory and inherited sort orders.
  – New keyboard shortcuts for copy, change display, new dir, run.
• Applications:
  – Image viewer.
  – Clipboard support in Edit, Paint, Draw, etc.
  – Configure Boot Look at/Run to Disable as well as Remove items.
  – Improve Network configure, remove manual file editing.
  – Pinboard: graded/HSV backgrounds, extra display settings, cacheing.
  – Logarithmic task display, improve list order, add detail.
  – Paint: reorder sprites in multiple-sprite file
• Built in support for:
  – Waste bin.
  – SysLog.

Some of the items in the above may seem minor such as: Adjust click on switcher opens Configure.
But it is a little annoyance when you’re used to using it and it doesn’t work, It is one more thing to have to remember is different for those of us that have to use a range of RISC OS versions daily.

Some of the items in the above may seem minor such as: Adjust click on switcher opens Configure.

I didn’t realize that was in Select/RO6, but I did suggest it, before Martin did the survey if I recall.
I got a bit of a verbal smack from Sprow. I still think I’m right it should be there and duplicating the Select button action on the Adjust button is just barking.

BTW. You might want to edit your posted listing to take out the echo.

Double-click renaming.

No – please not. When I was still using Select, many moons ago, this used to drive me mad! I almost always use small icons in filer windows. You had to make sure you double clicked on the small icon, otherwise double clicking on the textual part, which I always do, opened a writable for rename, rather than running the app or opening the directory.

No – please not. When I was still using Select, many moons ago, this used to drive me mad!

OK, don’t click in the tick box in Filer Configure then :)
Obviously your configuration doesn’t have that option active otherwise click-click-hold would bring up a rename box.

Some of the items in the above may seem minor such as: Adjust click on switcher opens Configure.

Last August I sent in a patch for this but I got an email (in March!) saying that it had been rejected so it won’t be in RISC OS 5.

Will Ling did a module QuickConfig that implements Adjust click on switcher opens Configure.

Last August I sent in a patch for this but I got an email (in March!) saying that it had been rejected so it won’t be in RISC OS 5.

That matches with the response to my suggestion that it was a good idea.
You have to say that it certainly scores higher than having the same response irrespective of select or adjust being used.

So far I count 3 votes for and one against.

Edit: Sorry that should probably read three votes for and an unexplained veto.

My first and last impression of ROL’s version was – green folders – ?? – why?

I paid 60 quid (when this could have bought … ) to ROL to go on the installer’s course, and this is my lasting memory! Green folders!

Justin did sterling work, but, IMHO, often misdirected. By whom, you may ask; the piper who called the tune, I guess!

If I seem to harbour some resentment, perhaps this is the cause. So much seemed to be merely cosmetic!

But I can’t go further because I never did any installs, and I never got a copy of the ROM, so actually know squat about it save what’s reported on the newsgroups.

But, apart from the improvements to Paint, and perhaps Draw I’ve heard about, I don’t know. Most things seem to be covered already by third party utilities/apps.

Yes, Draw to JPEG and Paint to JPEG would be very handy in the real world, dealing with recycling sites and so forth (giving/selling items?).

But, really, if one has the 3rd party apps to hand, it’s possible to make it all work! The genius of RISC OS with its separate apps for different specific purposes that one can actually understand makes it all possible. Wizards – who needs ’em!

Green folder? Why? I never had. Not on my Risc PC and not on my a9home.

At the a9home the showings was delivered. In Germany.
Sorry , I could not resist.

Hi. Been in epic research mode → http://www.heyrick.co.uk/blog/index.php?diary=20150616 ;)

Right-oh…

and no-one mentioned keyboard Filer shortcuts,

I think that was an expired bounty, so obviously not that important.

Edit: Sorry that should probably read three votes for and an unexplained veto.

Add another vote for. I created a patch for Switcher (which Fred fixed and I refixed, it’s complicated! ;-) ) but as was mentioned, ROOL rejected it. My memory may be hazy, but I think the “official” reason was there was already two ways to get to Config – running !Boot and in the menu.
Still, I’m looking at writing an autopatcher so I can automatically merge my patches into the code on my system because, yes, I quite like Adjust opening Configure. It is lazy, but it is useful.

– Firewall.

If it doesn’t filter outgoing as well as incoming, it’s no damn use. You’d probably be better off using the firewall in your ADSL router properly and not bothering with one in RISC OS.

– EDID.

Done.

– ImageFileConvert clone.

Would be nice.

– BootLog, and SysLog enhancements.

Some of this (and making boot failures non fatal, plus making RISC OS start up like old-school Linux) can be addressed by Harinezumi.

– Startup menu.

Was this useful or more of a tick-list item? When I have any unusual startup, I hammer the Esc key (since Shift-* no longer works on USB keyboards) and start up manually. Every other time, I would like startup to proceed as scheduled.

– Selectable text in writable icons.

Would be nice, but these days it would probably need to be done Windows/Linux style to avoid culture shock for those who move between systems.

– Rearrangeable window furniture.

Might be nice if we’re going to knock out an XP theme – but otherwise…?

– Shutdown confirmation.

Very useful. I wrote my own. I don’t know if CJE use that, or Willi’s (might depend upon system), but “Switch off”, “Reboot”, and “Cancel” is better than everything just exiting if you hit Ctrl-Shift-F12 or Ctrl-Break.

– Move opened menus to the left at right edge of screen.

Useful.

– Adjust click on switcher opens Configure.

Already mentioned, useful.

– PC Delete.

You mean Delete to delete characters to the right of the cursor? Perhaps my growing up with RISC OS has broken me, but I don’t think I have ever used that. My Del key isn’t working right now, and I don’t miss it.
That said, two keys that do the same thing is a bit…wasteful.

– Change desktop font size.

? I thought you could? I have recollection of adjusting the font size in RISC OS 3.7 because Homerton always appears a bit bigger than Trinity for what is supposed to be the same point size.

– Put !Configure back in Apps.

I guess this makes sense, as calling it !Boot is not exactly intuitive; though these days people might expect to see something called “Setup” ?

– Faster opening of very long menus.

Define “very long”? The reason I ask is https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/2963 and some experience with that program (and older software like the original Ovation) is that the time lost opening long menus is nothing compared to the time lost navigating them.

– Shaded icons take background colour into account

As they should have when RISC OS 3.10 was released…

– Double-click renaming.

Hmm…

– Thumbnail display.

Something I miss from my 3.70 box.

– True numerical sort order.

You mean correctly handing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 ? Yes, useful.

– Display sort order in title bar.

Clutter?

Sorry – I’m being more terse now. It’s ten to two and I have to be up in six hours. Should be asleep now!

– Filetype menus (customisable) for ‘Set type’.

Definitely.

– Toolbars.

Yuck. This isn’t Windows. What I like about RISC OS is that is tries not to waste screen space on that sort of thing. Sometimes (Draw? OvationPro?) toolbars are necessary. I’m not really convinced that the Filer is one of those times.

– Per-directory and inherited sort orders.

Out of interest – settings to be stored where?
Should this apply canonicalised? What if a subdirectory is already open with different settings to the parent, but under a different “path”. Open how – inherited or as the existing?

By different path, I mean like this:

1. Open $, go to Apps

2. Set MyApps$Path $.Apps:
Open MyApps:

Two directory viewers of the same thing, with different titles, accessed via different methods. You would also add something like opening <SciCalc$Dir>.^ too. ;-)

– New keyboard shortcuts for copy, change display, new dir, run.

Cursor keys to move and select would be nice, too.

– Image viewer.

Isn’t SwiftJPEG already supplied in the SD image?
I gave up on doing anything with FYEO2 when I saw how fast SwiftJPEG was.

Sorry. Tired. Will look at the others tomorrow.

– PC Delete.

You mean Delete to delete characters to the right of the cursor? Perhaps my growing up with RISC OS has broken me, but I don’t think I have ever used that. My Del key isn’t working right now, and I don’t miss it.

That said, two keys that do the same thing is a bit…wasteful.

RISC OS 5 has had PC Delete as standard since its launch, hasn’t it?

What’s possibly missing is a way to make non-conforming apps follow the standard, but that isn’t a tick-box in Configure because that would break those apps which do conform.

I think I read somewhere that it’s “old keyboard (Copy key), old way” and “new keyboard, new way”. But I’ve never even seen let alone used an old keyboard so I can’t say for sure :)

Green folder? Why? I never had.

That was one of the…contentious…changes in RISC OS 4.

http://lserv.deg.gubkin.ru/guis/riscos4lotsofwins.gif
http://www.riscos.info/images/a/ad/RO4TypicalScreen.png

That was one of the…contentious…changes in RISC OS 4.

I know this. Was a joke, sorry ;-)
The German territory (I use) comes with her own, not green, Theme (Select/Adjust, a9home).

True numerical sort order.

You mean correctly handing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 ? Yes, useful

5 has had this for at least a year, it’s in the release notes too, perhaps check first before commenting?

– Move opened menus to the left at right edge of screen.

I dislike the way Select does it, but more like the way SmartMenu does it: if the child-menu don’t fit on the right than put it left of the parent.
http://www.theochem.ru.nl/~dtanis/riscos.html