The End

In StrongED pressing “End” goes to the end of the file and pressing “Ctrl-End” goes to the end of line.

In NetSurf pressing “End” goes to the end of the line and “Ctrl-End” deletes the line.

In Edit pressing “End” goes to the end of the file and “Ctrl-End” deletes the line. Also “Shift-End” deletes the word after the cursor.

In Writer+ pressing “End” deletes one character to the right of the cursor (“Ctrl-End” has no effect)

In Fireworkz pressing “End” deletes one character and “Ctrl-End” goes to the end of file. Also “Shift-End” goes to the end of the line and selects text between the cursor and the end of the line.

Madness.

Anyone got a copy of Zap to test it with to see if we have another different use for the End key?

Also, does anyone have a brick I can bash my head off?

It seems I have found a consistent solution for part of it: “Ctrl+Right Arrow” goes to the end of the current line in all the editors I have installed.

This is good stuff!
Now I know how to make StrongEd go to the end of the line.
Glen, I didn’t know about Ctrl+Right arrow. On this little keyboard right arrow happens to be also End when the Fn key is pressed. So for me it’s a key combo no matter what.

Glad I’m of some use!

Further key-bashing and I have found that Ctrl+ the other arrow keys works like this: start of file (up key), end of file (down key), start of line (left key) and end of line (right key).

Also Shift+left and Shift+right appear to have the same effect as Ctrl+ in some editors.

It certainly is interesting stuff I’m discovering about the keyboard on RISC OS…subtly different from other operating systems to make it fun to learn again (and fun to design my fantasy small re-programmable keyboard!)

Yeah, the End key is an odd one in RISC OS because early machines didn’t have one! They had a Copy key instead, to match the BBC Micro. However as that was only useful in the command line, under the desktop it got reused as a delete right key instead (because Delete deleted to the left, again same as on the BBC Micro).

Then standard PC keyboards came along with End keys, and some things got changed and some didn’t :-(

However use of the cursor keys with Shift and Ctrl should be standard across everything, i.e. Shift+cursor does left/right a word or up/down a page, while Ctrl+cursor does start/end of line or start/end of document.

Also I think it’s standard for Ctrl+PageUp/Down to scroll the window without moving the cursor.

Speaking on a personal and general user perspective I think it is frankly insane to continue with any kind of delete action associated with the end key.

Standard keyboards on modern machines (let’s ignore items from a previous century please) have delete key and an end key and a backspace delete key

Backspace delete does exactly that deletes to left and moves the cursor back
End moves to the end
Delete deletes to the right (thus not duplicating the backspace delete)

Meanwhile Ctrl-End is a more extreme end – usually the document/text/file end.

If people want to use a quirky keyboard then I’m sure we can develop a legacy map for them.
In many respects this is part of the Territory discussions as keyboard layouts integrate with that.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that it is expected that Shift and anything would select the text…

As opposed to that quirky jump to next word when the shift right-arrow is used and similar quirks for other combinations.

The biggest problem is that people point out that you can edit the keyboard action mappings in things like StrongED and Zap, which course is p*** all use in all the other text editors etc that don’t allow that and sometimes affects other behaviour anyway.

I really don’t give a monkeys how many well used unix editors of the 1970’s did it that way because I vaguely remember a century change between then and now and personal computers can happily sit in your hand rather occupy a room of their own.

This is one of those things where it depends what you’re most used to. As a life-long RISC OS user, Delete is still (mentally) delete-left and Copy/End is still delete-right. I know it seems illogical, but my brain just auto-shifts gear between behaviours when you plonk me down in front of a RISC OS screen or a Windows screen. I am constantly getting caught out by the “new” RISC OS behaviour because it has only been around for about 10 years now!!!

I agree that users of other platforms would expect standard behaviours. It’s just that… wahhh… wahhh… (toys fly out of pram). Darn you Acorn for not standardising this with the RiscPC!

I am constantly getting caught out by the “new” RISC OS behaviour because it has only been around for about 10 years now!!!

It pre-dates RO5 IIRC so more like 15+.

Oh, and for me RPC era behaviour was an irritation as I was dealing various other systems (not just PeeCee’s) that didn’t do things that way. By the sound of it change with the RPC would have suited you fine.

It pre-dates RO5 IIRC so more like 15+.

It was actually noted in the RISC OS 3.1 Style Guide (1993, according to its front page) that “In the future, non-proprietary PC keyboards may be supported, in which case the Copy key will be named End and the functions of this, Backspace and Delete will be as follows:” … before outlining the standard “Windows” behaviour.

So that means that Acorn mandated this change before the RiscPC came out, and then didn’t implement it in their own OS when they started shipping standard PS/2 keyboards. Oh, Acorn!

Since no-one else has mentioned it, I’ll just plug PC Keyboard 2 (not version 1, which is for “legacy” use) which can be found at http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/software/utils/ – if anyone wishes to send me patches for individual applications, I’ll add them to the documentation (I’m fairly sure that Writer+ is already covered).

It was actually noted in the RISC OS 3.1 Style Guide (1993, according to its front page) that “In the future, non-proprietary PC keyboards may be supported, in which case the Copy key will be named End and the functions of this, Backspace and Delete will be as follows:” … before outlining the standard “Windows” behaviour.

So that’s the legacy support argument squashed totally, utterly and possibly beyond oblivion. But coz we’re nice we could allow a modifier, maybe from a third-party :)

The current Style Guide (2015) states that:

• Backspace should delete to the left, or cut to the clipboard if any selection (this is a change from the 1993 guide which doesn’t suggest using the clipboard)
• Delete should delete to the right, or cut to the clipboard if any selection (also a change from 1993)
• End should move to the end of the document (same as 1993)
• “Ctrl-Down or End” should move to the end of the document – I’m not sure whether this means “Ctrl-Down or Ctrl-End” or whether it’s “Ctrl-Down, or End”.

In any case, there is nothing that I can see about Ctrl-End deleting the current line.

Have I opened a can of worms…?

I am actually perfectly happy with Ctrl-arrows (now that I know about them!) for navigating and I don’t mind at all if RISC OS is different to other operating systems.

Maybe there should be an option in the Keyboard section of Configure to allow the End key functionality to be changed if the user wishes it?

Have I opened a can of worms…?

Only a can that never should have existed.
As mentioned the guidelines were changed to match what most would call PeeCee style years ago (before Acorn disappeared) back in the mists of early RISC OS time (when dinosaurs walked)
So when RO3.5 appeared on the RPC it should have been as we are now describing and when 3.7 appeared it too should have been.
Better late than never. Oh, and legacy behaviour is possible if you load Steve’s little utility

Only a can that never should existed.

I’m only forty-cough-mumble years old, but it seems to me that most cans of worms fit that definition.

…

Just noticed I’ve passed 5K messages. Zoiks!