Bounty proposal: Paint
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Chris (121) 472 posts |
This really sounds like two different tools: (1) a scalable brush tool with translucency and a range of basic shapes, and (2) a sprite ‘stamp’ tool. To keep the interface simple, it might be best to have two buttons on the toolbox, one for each. At this point, though, I wonder if we’re putting quite a lot of features into a single bounty proposal? Unless there’s something really compelling we’ve omitted, I’d be in favour of freezing the feature list here and seeing if we can get it published to attract some interest. |
Michael Drake (88) 336 posts |
Yes, agreed. Any comments from ROOL? |
Steve Revill (20) 1361 posts |
This looks like a great set of proposed updates to me. I’ll review the wiki page with the other ROOL guys – we’re long overdue a review of the current set of bounties anyway. Warning Steve’s risking going off topic (sorry)… We love all this activity on the forums and all the great suggestions for improvements and new bounties. Those exactly the sort of vibrant exchanges of ideas that we could only dream of when setting up ROOL seven long years ago. Thanks to everyone for contributing! Having said that, we’ve been seeing very few actual donations coming in over the past year or so, which is disappointing. For example, there were well over 2,000 downloads of the 5.20-related work in the first couple of months and if everyone downloading that had donated just a fiver as a bit of a “thank you” you can see what a potential pot we could’ve had to throw towards improvements like this. As it happened, we actually received less than £100 (around 3p per download in the end) :( This should be a warning to all those discussing new bounties; it’s all very well coming up with great ideas and suggestions but unless there’s actually money coming into those pots, the bounty will never be likely to translate into reality and we’ll have to reluctantly retire it in a year or so. Such a shame! I’m giving you a bit of a preview here of what I will be focusing on for my talk at the London Show next weekend – our belief that without a significant change in the amount of money coming into RISC OS, we’re never going to be able to truly break free of being stuck in the niche we’re currently in. And I’m not knocking the great work done by our volunteer contributors (ROOL staff included) by saying that! |
Michael Drake (88) 336 posts |
Maybe the links on the download page could take you to a “Your download will start in 5 seconds” page. (Easy to implement with a meta refresh.) The new download-pending page can have a “Please consider donating to one of our bounties, to aid the continuing improvement of RISC OS” message. “Just a fiver from enough people makes a difference”, etc. :) And it could list the open bounties. |
Chris (121) 472 posts |
Hmm. That is disappointing. Perhaps there’s scope for publicising the bounties a bit more – Iconbar, csa.*, etc. I could do the former; I’m sure there’s someone else who’s happy to do the latter. I do wonder whether something like Paint bounty might do better than, say, the inline assembler target. The average user might well see the benefit from updated apps in a way they don’t for updates to the developer tools. Will be interesting to see. |
David Pitt (102) 743 posts |
The existing bounties do not really fit with my current experience of OS5 aggravations, such as they are. OK so !Paint might usefully do with a couple of fixes otherwise the app seems OK to me. And I could not care less about any RO6 based wish list, other than Boot logging obviously, see csa.misc. The real RISC OS issues here are not all ROOL matters. They are the slow upload speed from the Raspberry Pi, NOOBS out of date and it would be really nice to have a stable RPCEmu for my Mac. I have done some penance for the above, and I am very appreciative of ROOL’s achievements. |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8155 posts |
Doubtful, the price of those probably covers the cost of putting them out to users and little more. I am not sure what the breakdown is. Though from my angle if there is enough to maintain the servers, office space with utilities and ISP service (combined total aprox $400USD per month) and pay any full time employs $700USD per month Pay? Probably counts as the most wishful thinking ever. If I’d got spare money I’d be putting in – unfortunately I’m a victim of the bankers and Tories1 so my income currently equals the bills plus a few hundred. 1 B****rds think rises lower than inflation are a good idea. Cobblers about annual increments don’t help either – I had one in 2007… |
Michael Drake (88) 336 posts |
Well, everyone will have their own priorities.
For example, none of those bother me but I think automatic monitor handling would be useful. Currently you either have to understand how to edit an MDF, or get hold of a working MDF from someone else. |
Steve Revill (20) 1361 posts |
By the way, when I said < £100, I was talking about donations to ROOL (the admin bounty) rather than to any of the other bounties… |
Rick Murray (539) 13806 posts |
You’re joking, right? <snip lengthy breakdown of how ~€1000 per month is barely enough for one, never mind two, arriving at around €18 per day and that’s only after the regular things are paid – everything else comes out of that sum; your claimed figure is half of this ($700=€512) which is below the poverty level of numerous European countries (except the UK as the basic state pension isn’t far off this figure…). In short, $700 for two people with all sorts of extras is only viable of you’re living in your mom’s basement, walk to work, and somebody else pays the utility bills……..?> Your $200 per extra person comes out as a mite under €7/day. That wouldn’t buy a McDonald’s meal over here… And this is talking purely food, not extras – clothing, toilet paper, shampoo, and all the other rubbish that is necessary for day to day life that has magical properties of doubling the price of a trip to the supermarket. On behalf of RISC OS, maybe they ought to get a PayPal account set up? I’d drop a few pennies their way from time to time. Cheques are extremely impractical for small donations because I rather suspect that anything I could send would be lost in random charges by the bank exclaiming “WTF is this? It isn’t even English!”. |
Dave Higton (1515) 3497 posts |
I’ve made a contribution to ROOL’s administrative expenses this evening. |
Martin Bazley (331) 379 posts |
It took a while, but I finally managed to realise where we’re all going wrong in this discussion of how to make the brush tool more intuitive. At the moment, the only way to copy part of one sprite into another is:
That is a lot of convoluted, non-intuitive steps, combined with dull housekeeping tasks which should never be the user’s job. What it should be is this:
And once Paint supports the clipboard…
Now, that’s a UI change I really could get behind. |
Frederick Bambrough (1372) 837 posts |
I presume the figure shown is the total amount ever donated. It’s more than the other categories. Trouble is it looks like that’s the amount that’s in there, which can’t be true. You must have spent some/all. Perhaps as it’s a special category, being permanent, an extra box showing what’s left would encourage people to top it up? |
Michael Drake (88) 336 posts |
I don’t really see the value in replacing RO-standard drag&drop behaviour with clipboard usage, especially when the apps in question don’t support it. Does anything support the clipboard for anything but text? Much better if the export sprite (or any other sprite you drag in) could be dropped into a sprite editor window, and have a “Use as brush?” query window open. Or even just jump to the brush tool with the sprite ready to go, without the query. |
Steve Pampling (1551) 8155 posts |
Wouldn’t that be easier to understand as a user if a specific area at the edge of the sprite editor window had a brush symbol and anything dragged to that area (and nowhere else) prompted a “use as brush” response. Save the global clipboard use for other things. You may be right that Martins simplification was still not simple enough. |
Michael Drake (88) 336 posts |
Chris already suggested that the Brush tool could have a drop box, for dropping sprites. That makes the behaviour clear. |
Steve Fryatt (216) 2103 posts |
Likewise: I’d meant to do it when I had a spare five minutes after I’d downloaded 5.20 (in lieu of buying the CD at Kenilworth), but never remembered to find the time.
A similar thought occurred to me when looking at the Bounties page this afternoon. The implication as it stands is that there’s a lot of spare cash in the administrative bounty, which there probably isn’t? |
Martin Bazley (331) 379 posts |
Yes, most sane apps. I don’t really use graphics software, but I’ve found DigitalCD’s integration of global clipboard support with its playlist data very useful on several occasions. I didn’t suggest copy and paste should be the be-all and end-all of it. Indeed, another thing most sane apps do (StrongED, DigitalCD, and I think NetSurf) is to allow you to drag and drop a selected area out of the application, which is equally useful. A change in RO5 Paint which I’m very fond of is the ability to select, and drag, sprites around, into and out of the file windows. In-sprite selection should allow the selected area to be dragged as well, which would both match what other apps do and permit your ‘use as brush’ draggy-droppy idea. A large part of my suggestion had to do with making Paint friendlier to new users, who are extremely unlikely to be able to figure the many steps of the existing idiosyncratic process out for themselves. |
Malcolm Hussain-Gambles (1596) 811 posts |
As regards the reason for little bounty this year. I can’t speak for other people but I donated to the USB bounty and it’s still open, and no update as to what is actually happening from a ROOL perspective. |
Steve Revill (20) 1361 posts |
This has been a lesson to us, certainly. I think we might need to clarify some of the rules for claiming bounties but I also think it’d be a good idea for each claimed bounty to gain a forum thread dedicated to it so the claimant (possibly anonymised through us) can post regular updates – we should probably stipulate at least one post per month – and people can ask questions.
Definitely not. I’m just about to re-open the bounty and offer someone else the chance to claim it (I’ll do another post to explain the reasons). If the worst comes to the worst, we will just have to retire the USB bounty as unclaimed. In which case, all the donations will be redistributed across the other open bounties (apart from the ROOL Admin, which is a different thing).
Please don’t give up on it – these are partly teething troubles because we’ve only been running the scheme for a bit more than a year. We’re still learning lessons. |
Michael Drake (88) 336 posts |
Back on topic, Steve Revill wrote in another thread:
Was there any discussion of the Paint bounty proposal? I see the wiki page has vanished. |
Steve Revill (20) 1361 posts |
Yes there was discussion of this and I was planning on creating a bounty for it before the show tomorrow, but I’ve no idea where the wiki page has gone. Has it really disappeared? |
Michael Drake (88) 336 posts |
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Steve Revill (20) 1361 posts |
Argh! How did that happen? |
Michael Drake (88) 336 posts |
Don’t know. Are there any backups? Unfortunately I didn’t think to keep a local copy. :( |
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