Pine64 / Pinebook

Nice! I saved that post for posterity. I didn’t get as far as finding an incantation that the Pinebook would actually accept.

I’m a little disappointed that folks aren’t prepared to support the people who do the work that’s being done to create the port etc. We offer the 11" software at various prices depending on what you want/need, in ways that allow you to support the development of RISC OS, both on Pinebook and other devices, complete with lots of extra stuff to allow you to manage the laptop, control brightness, battery, security, keyboard, more-or-less unique on RISC OS “plug’n’play” networking and so on.

You even get a javascript-capable web browser (PineBrowse)!

The pinebook 11" port (which also supports 14") is an active one – I’m about to release a new version today, for example.

Hopefully this doesn’t come over as a whinge or similar.

I’m a little disappointed that folks aren’t prepared to support the people who do the work that’s being done to create the port etc. We offer the 11" software at various prices depending on what you want/need,

I may be out of touch with current status¹ but when I last looked the R-Comp pages didn’t clearly explain the separate software availability so that may be the origin of people looking elsewhere and Jason may have started at the Pinebook site anyway.

The Pinebook 11" port (which also supports 14") is an active one – I’m about to release a new version today, for example.

From a personal perspective the 11" isn’t really viable – I’m using a 14" laptop here and now and the default text sizes for certain items are right on my limit.² I do recall there being a difference in the panel style as well as the size but my problem revolves around size a distance combinations.
There’s an 11" (approx) laptop in the junk room which is currently totally unusable, so I’m slightly reluctant to buy a current ARMBook.

You might want to look at the viability of selling 14" units – there’s a few of the ‘senior’ people round here that might find a larger display more to their liking. A 17" would be brilliant.

The new version information needs to be more prominent BTW.

¹ Having spent a number of months with vision impairment close to blindness I’m still catching up on various things. There are swatches of forum posts I just haven’t gone back into as tidying the garden and parts of the house are, I’m told, more important than reading such things.

You might want to look at the viability of selling 14" units

Weren’t the 14" units an early “prototype” (for want of a better word), which vanished to be replaced by the 11"? If my memory is correct on that, I’d imagine that the viability of selling them is going to be close to zero.

A 17" would be brilliant.

I don’t think that’s how RISC OS hardware development works, unfortunately… unless someone decides to make a suitable 17" ARM-based notebook which can be easily obtained for re-branding, it’s unlikely to happen.

You might want to look at the viability of selling 14" units – there’s a few of the ‘senior’ people round here that might find a larger display more to their liking. A 17" would be brilliant.

Very true… A 15.6 inch (matte) screen is the sweet spot for me. A dual boot PineBook Pro would be my choice, if its the same as, or faster than the Pi4. That said I have two ageing Intel laptops with 15.6 and 17 inch screens that could do with ;-) ARM upgrades…

The widespread availability of kit such as the Raspberry Pi, HoneyComb Workstation, Pine64 and other ARM devices might suggest that selling software that enhances function might be the way to go, along with hardware offerings. I wonder if there’s any mileage in marketing software packs similar to the “Learning Curve”.

Weren’t the 14" units an early “prototype” (for want of a better word), which vanished to be replaced by the 11"?

Pass.

If my memory is correct on that, I’d imagine that the viability of selling them is going to be close to zero.

Moving to the Pinebook Pro, the options seem to be 14" or 14" so that looks promising (assuming Andrew has the Pro version i the pipeline)

unless someone decides to make a suitable 17" ARM-based notebook which can be easily obtained for re-branding

That will probably be a later project from Pine, could be a while…

That will probably be a later project from Pine, could be a while…

And could be even longer or not at all for RISC OS to run on it if people fail to support those who are trying their best to provide us with products for potentially very little reward.

It is always a balancing act when supporting RISC OS and thats why I got an early pre release version of the PineBook 11" FHD laptop rather than wait for something else like the Pro to get released/ported.

I realise that not everyone can comprimise but hanging on for the next big product in the RISC OS world is just as likely to make RISC OS die on the vine.

So I currently I have a RISC OS laptop that I use Big Mode on when required and also a WiFi adaptor to connect with whilst which means money goes in to the developers and I might just get the missing features if enough people support them in any way they feel they can.

What amazes me is that RISC OS is still alive and kicking so many years on and hopefully Covid 19 hasn’t pushed it nearer an exit just as things looked to be getting really exciting again.

@Steve Pampling: Many thanks! It took me a while to figure out how to find and edit that file, but it does now boot with the correct resolution.

@Andrew Rawnsley: I am sorry for my confusion, but: am I being rebuked for trying out software made available on the Pinebook wiki? Is there somewhere I should have purchased the software from instead? The only place I found RiscOS for the Pinebook for sale was “riscosbits” – which requires the purchase of a Pinebook itself (and I don’t need a second one).

am I being rebuked for trying out software made available on the Pinebook wiki?

I think Andrew assumed you were a regular RO user doing things on the cheap rather than a new user.

Me, I just pointed out how you can override the things that the OS default settings might do that’s come up before. Other people have had issues on normal machines with EDID failing to set a correct monitor type and causing the OS to default to a silly low resolution.

The ARMbook is actually a Pinebook with the software already loaded. See http://www.armini.co.uk/purchase.shtml and specifically the bit “I wish to purchase an ARMbook laptop. Please contact me to discuss details and payment.”

The really well hidden item is the software for ARMbook.
This one “I wish to purchase an ARMX6 DIY kit.” is clearly a purchase of a software set for the ARMX6 (built round the Wandboard (Dual?)) but where’s the “make a Pinebook an ARMbook”?

That’s the point where you think where Andrew is supposed to make any money out of all this – is it a markup on the hardware? or is it sale of the specific software set and associated applications/tools and after sales support that’s a phone call/email away?

“make a Pinebook an ARMbook”?

That is a good point but I guess the turnkey option of hardware and software makes more financial sense as in a profit, ok break even I guess in the RISC OS world, in the early days of a product with a later option to tailor purchasable options.

CJEMicros did a seperate software option with their version of the Pi-top.

Anyway I guess an old fashioned phone call or email to RComp may just test what RComp/ Andrew can offer for those who already have a Pinebook.

I think Andrew assumed you were a regular RO user doing things on the cheap rather than a new user.

It’s still a bit cheeky, given the RISC OS licence permits what Jason was trying, and the fact that Jason has only three posts to his credit here. Unless we’re planning to drive all new users away from the platform, the default assumption should always be “new user” and therefore “welcoming”.

That’s the point where you think where Andrew is supposed to make any money out of all this

From people going to his products because he, er, advertises them on his website so that the benefits can be seen from a Google search? I know, that’s a radical idea.

Anyway I guess an old fashioned phone call or email to RComp may just test what RComp/ Andrew can offer for those who already have a Pinebook.

And how are new people to the platform supposed to know that, or should they even need to do it if the interest is in getting it working for themselves?

Who knows, someone tinkering with the OS today might be developing stuff for us sometime down the line. But that’s less likely if we welcome them by berating their attempts to legitimately get an Open Source OS up and running on hardware which they already own.

And how are new people to the platform supposed to know that

Firstly let me make up for an ommision and welcome/welcome back Jason to RISC OS.
Agree it is something that RISC OS companies haven’t had to do a lot of but new users will need more/easier access to such information.

Also as you say in an open source environment RISC OS companies will need to think of what is their offering if RISC OS is free…

Thanks for the clarification.

You’re right – this is my first time using RiscOS in years. I collect computers (mostly old, which includes a few Acorns, but also notable newer machines like the Pinebook), and have an interest in learning about different operating systems through direct experimentation. Having recently purchased the Pinebook, it’s ARM processor made RiscOS seem like an obvious next OS to experiment with.

Looking at the pricing for the ARMbook, however – that is rather outside curiosity and experimentation territory for me.

and have an interest in learning about different operating systems through direct experimentation.

Ah, now that’s the bit where you get yourself a copy of the DDE (cheap route is a Pi, which you probably already possess, and the NutPi package) and then you twiddle with the source for a module or two and figure out what features you can add to the OS. :)

Hi Jason. I’m sorry if that wasn’t the warmest welcome I could have given! As you may have realised, it rather, erm, niggled me when I got up and read the thread this morning. I’ll try and explain below :)

As others like to point out, I don’t necessarily get marketing right, as I do tend to assume people are familiar with what we do, both as co-owner of the RISC OS IP (RISC OS Developments), and major supplier of RISC OS hardware/software (R-Comp). It sounds like it is time to make more of a song-and-dance about the Pinebook→ARMbook software pack. I’ve held back previously for reasons mentioned below, but maybe it is now time.

The background is that a port of RISC OS to new hardware generally takes a team of one to three people up to 18 months to produce, to do a thorough job. You can often do a lot in just six months, but we’re still adding stuff to the Pinebook port after 18+ months. I’d rather not talk sales figures, but suffice to say that a RISC OS “salary” tends to be below/barely minimum wage, so sales of one product directly affect the viability of the next.

The Pinebook + RISC OS (aka ARMbook) represents the first real native ARM portable since Acorn’s A4 back in the early 90s. The project has been covered quite extensively on these forums, and on videos of various talks on youtube. The project was even part of the saving of RISC OS when Castle crumbled a couple of years back, and is directly contributing to many current RISC OS projects, from the creation of a JavaScript friendly web browser for RISC OS, to networking, wifi, Python and more.

Last year, I produced a version specifically for the 14" Pinebook because there were no production units available any more, so it wasn’t possible to offer a Pinebook 14" retail product. Anyone who happened to have one could try it out for free, and it included an explanation about the ARMbook, and how the software could be purchased separately and better versions / more functionality obtained (for both 14 inch and 11 inch). It was not intended to be modified for use on the 11" since that is an active project, helping to put (quite small amounts of) food on the table of those of us involved (gentle smile). A formal update to support both screen sizes is planned once things mature, incidentally.

However, sale of ARMbook (etc) is what helps fund the projects that we’re working on. We do offer the option to buy the software separately, as we do for all our boards. However, doing so often reduces income, and is not our preferred way of doing things (hence why it isn’t in big letters on the website). That said, anyone who does go the software-only route will receive everything a full owner would, both in terms of software, support and community.

RISC OS has a lot of big challenges to be tackled in fairly short order, and we’re trying to do that ASAP. For those of us that work at it full time, that means we need to make sale of software and support in order to make things happen. In a rough year (COVID), ARMbook has been a ray of light.

Steve makes a very good point about tinkerers today being the creators of tomorrow, so perhaps I should be more open minded. It is very true that I don’t find Open Source an easy concept. It is also true that distributions of RISC OS may also be © their respective creators. I do rather see the Pinebook port as “my baby”, and so perhaps I need to learn to let go.

Either way, there’s a much better version available from my company directly, one with sound, software, native support for both screen sizes, power management, security, networking, JS web browser, proper keyboard/touchpad config and so on. All you need to do is drop an email to the usual R-Comp email addresses, and be willing to part with some cash (sorry), assuming I haven’t scared you off completely, in which case, my apologies.

Now that I know a little more of the background and history of the Pinebook ports, I can understand your position.

I was unaware that the port distributed on the pine64 wiki was intended only for the 14, not the 11. The page its on basically says – here it is; find out more at RiscOSOpen – and I’d assumed it was an open source effort rather than a tech demo (prototype, perhaps?) of a commercial product.

At this point in time, I’ve not yet explored the OS enough to form a coherent opinion of it – let alone whether I’d like to keep using it. Despite having used a range of OSes (from Windows to MacOS, NeXTStep to VMS) some of RiscOS concepts still seem somewhat alien.

Should I become more familiar with it and wish to use it more I will definitely consider the purchase of your Pinebook to ARMBook software distribution (particularly if it can support tap-to-click and double-tap-and-drag on the touchpad).

Thanks Jason, helpful feedback. Sadly the touchpad capabilities are somewhat “baked in”. Early 11.6" Pinebooks did actually have tap-to-click (unit unit I test on does) but they changed it on later units. In some ways this is a benefit – no accidental clicks when typing, but it does mean that it takes a little getting used to. I recommend using both hands – one to “mouse” and one to click. I find it works well, and means that operations like drag’n’drop work well, whereas it can be awkward with fancier touchpads.

The software does, however, make menu button handling better, which is important for RISC OS, and also improves keyboard layout/placement, avoiding some of the less ideal aspects of the unit’s keyboard arrangement.

If you have access to a Pi, I’d recommend trying RISC OS on that, because it’s a much more mature port, and probably better for learning the OS. Either the Pi download on this site, or RISC OS Direct on http://www.riscosdev.com/ (which is a little more comprehensive).

Sadly the touchpad capabilities are somewhat “baked in”.

That would explain why the touchpad was exhibiting similar behavior in the previous Linux installation. Without tap-to-click, I would much rather have had separate physical buttons, like early-model touchpads – this one seems to be the a worst-of-both-worlds implementation.

Regarding using a Raspberry Pi – whilst I have a couple of these kicking about, desk space has been at a bit of a premium ever since I had to bring my workstation home from work during the pandemic. I suspect at some point, I’m just going to have to get creative with desk space management.

I suspect at some point, I’m just going to have to get creative with desk space management.

I sympathise, my 4th bedroom¹ is currently a pile of “stuff” that needs sorting – and probably a commercial size wheelie-bin² to create space.

¹ The 3rd room is the wife’s office, the 2nd is for ironing etc. She does, of course use the living room for working in…

Last year, I produced a version specifically for the 14" Pinebook because there were no production units available any more, so it wasn’t possible to offer a Pinebook 14" retail product.

B***er. Rethink time.

In a rough year (COVID), ARMbook has been a ray of light.

That’s good news. Someone not totally flattened by the restrictions. I’m at least in a growth area for my employment.

From a personal perspective the 11" isn’t really viable

With BigMode, it’s not a BigDeal.

But the Touchpad driver could be better, with a few tweaks (some better ways to separate clicks from moves, strict zones for clicks, etc.).

and probably a commercial size wheelie-bin to create space.

I think to sort out here, I’d need a skip. Part of the reason I’ve been doing outside stuff. Also, feeling extremely uneasy doing anything with mom’s stuff is another reason.

Someone not totally flattened by the restrictions.

I’m an introvert. This is sort of “welcome to my life”. Every weekend since July (whenever I went to the sales, I forget) I stay at home and don’t go out. Don’t even go to Châteaubriant any more. Summer holiday? Stayed here. Did stuff here. Went out to the local supermarket once or twice a week.

It has benefits. I’ve already get a little over €4,500 I can draw on for a newer Playmobil car. I’m aiming for 6-7K before I start looking.
Fewer people on the roads means I have a less stressful journey to/from work. And the nice spring and summer meant I could get a load of stuff done outside. As you’ll know if you search my blog for the word “bramble”. ;-)

I’m at least in a growth area for my employment.

It’s strange. The company I work for got hit pretty badly as we made a lot of things for the hospitality trade and that all but crashed to a halt across Europe in a matter of weeks.
Now? We’re gearing up for the Christmas promos and we’ve just picked up a big order for something to be shipped to Japan. So it’s a slightly smaller team than normal for this time of year (we don’t have dozens of seasonal workers) but all of the regular employees are there. Indeed, we’re all doing half an hour extra per day. So, life carries on…

I’m at least in a growth area for my employment.

I should say that I’m in the process of doing a “return” to work.
By arrangement this will be from home (no rota in days) so I can easily maintain the isolation status needed for pre and post-op requirements for the op on the other eye.

You’re all hoping that means less time for daft comments in daytime hours of course.

I’ll make this simple.

The version of RISC OS available via Pine64, although not labeled as such is an old build judging by the time stamp. I take it to be a demo, or test drive version of RISC OS. The sort of thing that a person may want to plop on to a MicroSD and have a bit of a play with.

The problem with this, as it was mentioned by others is that the actual product in development is one of the Internet’s best kept secrets. Is it available? Where is it available? How much does it cost? What is the current state of development? These are not questions that are easily answered by searching.
Other questions may be whether the ARMBook is the same hardware as the PineBook? Is the ROM “baked in” with a proprietary partition scheme? Does an ARMBook need to be purchased to use this version of RISC OS.

Addressing the basic information which people may want to know about a product present or pending is usually a basic requirement.