Pine64 / Pinebook

I realised I sounded harsh. Terse is closer. Speaking personally, I will not make a purchase unless the price is listed.
I have no desire to purchase a second Pinebook.
If I feel RO is usable on a Pinebook, I would consider purchasing it at a reasonable price, befitting functionality. I’ve used the Linux port and am on the fence, mostly because of the trackpad. Even after some tweaks.
I bought the “Proper” DDE, because I had intentions on using it on things other than the Pi.

Semi related. I downloaded a disc image of Haiku recently (No overlap in interests. At least not really) to try on my old Acer Aspire One. Wifi didn’t work. Some other stuff didn’t work. The disc image couldn’t be expanded to use the rest of the card. But I was happy. I could see it running. I could play with the included applications. That was nice. That was good. If they had better hardware support for my old netbook I’d want it. I’d even be willing to pay for it.
Show me a feature limited, boot limited, time limited etc. version of RISC OS for the Pinebook, and point me in the right direction to purchase a full version.
I’m not trying to cheat you out of earnings. I just don’t like throwing money down mysterious holes.

I think you were being very harsh to be honest.

All the information you want is on the website. I simply put ARMBOOK in the google search and first entries are for it and its website. This includes the standard spec and also prices. Plus software support scheme (which if I remember correctly allows you to get the current version of the software and get updates for both the OS and the additional software.

http://www.armini.co.uk/ARMbok.shtml
prices are on the Purchase button.

As for the version of the OS its not updated daily with beta versions – its a commercial product after all but R-Comp are currently in the middle of releasing new versions of the OS this week I believe.

Yes I agree RISC OS marketing in general is not good and needs to get a bit of higher priority to increase sales and interest. It would also let users of older RISC OS computers know that it still exists and on new hardware.

All the information you want is on the website. I simply put ARMBOOK in the google search and first entries are for it and its website.

Assuming that people know that Andrew named his software build and Pinebook hardware combination using a name from a throw-away comment I made. You’re “in the know”.
Newcomers to these forums and RO in general wouldn’t have a clue.

BTW. You and I stand a better chance of getting Google to offer up RO related stuff than anyone I work with – cookies, learning algorithms etc.

Let’s just agree that we agree RO marketing could be better.

Assuming that people know that Andrew named his software build and Pinebook hardware combination using a name from a throw-away comment I made. You’re “in the know”.
Newcomers to these forums and RO in general wouldn’t have a clue.

I understand your point, but also just entering RISC OS laptop in a google search also bring up details of the Pine based RISC OS ARMBook.

Let’s just agree that we agree RO marketing could be better.

Oh I agree with you. The big push when RISC OS was fully open sourced via various outlets let people know we still existed.

Plus software support scheme (which if I remember correctly allows you to get the current version of the software and get updates for both the OS and the additional software.

There is no indication on the website that the DIY package is also viable for the ARMBook. Especially on the ARMBook page itself there is not a hint that this is a viable option, especially as the word “pine” is not even mentioned, so who should guess which hardware is needed for a DIY approach?

Typing ARMBook into Google takes me to the preliminary info PDF without a hint that it is already available. Or that a software-only package would ever be available for owners of the hardware.

Confusingly, Firefox is not even allowing me to do a text search inside http://www.armini.co.uk/ARMbok.shtml, which is very strange. But the page is probably optimized for WebsterXL.

Not to mention that the domain name is strangely specific to a machine which is no longer available to buy. And the front page mentions specifically the software&support packages as being only available for Titanium, Beagleboard and Pandaboard. The ARMbook is only mentioned via a link at the top of the page and is absent from the rest. The “Details” page additionally mention the Pi and the Wandboard – again, no ARMBook in sight wrt the software&support package.

I know Andrew has a lot of things to do, but the time he needs to invest to correct misinformation that the average punter assumes from reading the not-very-adequate-info from the website would be better invested by just providing clear, consistent and up-to-date information on the website. Instead of the mess it currently is.

Confusingly, Firefox is not even allowing me to do a text search inside http://www.armini.co.uk/ARMbok.shtml, which is very strange. But the page is probably optimized for WebsterXL.

Must be local to your machine/Firefox install because hitting “/” brings the interactive search box, typing “armbook” jumps to the first instance and F3 skips to the next and next…

However, I do agree about the ARMbook software info vs. ARMini

I know Andrew has a lot of things to do, but the time he needs to invest to correct misinformation that the average punter assumes from reading the not-very-adequate-info from the website would be better invested by just providing clear, consistent and up-to-date information on the website. Instead of the mess it currently is.

As ever the overall solution, not just this specific instance, is probably to engage the services of a person with web expertise who has an interest in RO and therefore will not expect big bucks.
Maybe if someone in RODL had a connection with an ISP/hosting company there could be a setup used by all RO suppliers?
Modest fee for building/maintaining the pages?

There is no indication on the website that the DIY package is also viable for the ARMBook. Especially on the ARMBook page itself there is not a hint that this is a viable option, especially as the word “pine” is not even mentioned, so who should guess which hardware is needed for a DIY approach?

Might because it was primarily selling/ promoting the full product to help pay for the development costs. But hey lets attack the company bringing a new product – a laptop to the market.

Typing ARMBook into Google takes me to the preliminary info PDF without a hint that it is already available

Well here the first entry is the website for the ARMbook, and the second is the link to the PDF. Even searching for pinebook + RISCOS bring up details of the ARMBook and a wikipedia entry for the Pinebook and RISC OS.

Ok I accept the DIY option is not clearly indicated, and Andrew himself has said he was primarily pushing the whole package.

Might because it was primarily selling/ promoting the full product to help pay for the development costs.

Just provide the software bundle at the right price, one which does help pay for the development costs. Potential market extended, problem solved.

But hey lets attack the company bringing a new product – a laptop to the market.

I don’t think I have attacked anyone. In contrast to Andrew, who suggested that people were not willing to take up an offer that is so secret that those people could not even know it exists. I am closely following the market, and even I didn’t know.

I am just stating the obvious – the R-Comp website is an inconsistent mess, and I have mentioned numerous examples of its misleading content. No wonder people get confused.

In contrast to Andrew, who suggested that people were not willing to take up an offer that is so secret that those people could not even know it exists. I am closely following the market, and even I didn’t know.

Details of the ARMbook’s availabily have been around for at least a year, at shows/magazines/websites/forums etc. So its certainly not a secret as you claim.

Are you offering to update the website at no cost for them? There are only so many hours in the day, and its family run business mainly Andrew, doing the best they can with limited resources and money.

Not heard anything in years about your software CDVDBurner I think, its so secret hardly anyone knows about it.

Details of the ARMbook’s availabily have been around for at least a year, at shows/magazines/websites/forums etc. So its certainly not a secret as you claim.

We’re at cross-purposes here.

Steffan and I were primarily talking about the DIY on Pinebook and you’re talking about the combined ARMbook soft/hard package although you did say:

Ok I accept the DIY option is not clearly indicated, and Andrew himself has said he was primarily pushing the whole package.

If you change that to “the DIY option also including Pinebook is not indicated” then I think we’re on the same page.

In fact I didn’t know until Andrew mentioned it in his posting.
Even now, after rescanning the web pages in question it still isn’t apparent that the available software applies to ALL the variants in the list.

As I mentioned earlier my current eye problems mean an 11" screen is too small. If I’d known the software was available and applicable to the 14" I’d have gone that route while the 14" was still available. I’ve mentally talked myself out of pursuing an ARMbook solution to my hobby use needs. Clear bedroom 4 and install a desk based setup.

I’d really prefer a laptop, with a large screen to produce a larger visual arc by being physically bigger.¹

Upstairs I have an old Siemens notepad device – the small screen was a pain in the ass eyeballs when I was first given it as new, with my current eyesight? No way is that usable except with a magnifying glass for the smaller text.

¹ A work colleague insists on using a 17" screen laptop for that larger visual arc. “It saves on eye-strain and headaches” is his summary.

Details of the ARMbook’s availabily have been around for at least a year, at shows/magazines/websites/forums etc. So its certainly not a secret as you claim.

Except that we’re talking about people new to the platform, who don’t know the back-story.

In fact, as you yourself said:

The big push when RISC OS was fully open sourced via various outlets let people know we still existed.

Except that, when someone does turn up to play with the OS and asks for help, they get their hand bitten off by Andrew for not buying a copy of the OS from him.

The only reason we’re having this discussion here is because of Andrew’s response to the request for help, and the subsequent attempts to dig the hole even deeper.

Well here the first entry is the website for the ARMbook, and the second is the link to the PDF.

Can I be the third person to point out to you that just because you get that set of results, it doesn’t mean that everyone does? Google optimise the results that they send you to some extent, based on your previous selections. If your search history suggests that you don’t follow the links to RISC OS items, you’re less likely to see links to well-hidden RISC OS stuff in your search results.

And, as the other Steve has also pointed out, those links don’t help anyway if you already own a Pinebook.

Are you offering to update the website at no cost for them?

They’re a business: if they want to sell things to people, then advertising those things is a good idea. If it costs to get that set up, then it’s a cost of doing business.

Bah, reading thread from beginning helps. But advice is still, do NOT try to flash emmc with riscos, it will not work. Error on pine site.

Just to clarify, the reason for not promoting the software-only approach is quite a simple one, and I think when you read it, you’ll probably go “ah, yes”.

If people buy Pinebooks from Pine directly, and just use a software pack, they (Pine) will never know that users are running RISC OS. The way we (as R-Comp, but indirectly, as a community) can be seen is by purchasing units “en masse”. The more we buy, the more we’re seen to be doing stuff. Pine themselves are in the business of selling/developing product, so if they can see regular, reasonable-size orders to a RISC OS vendor, then that raises the profile of RISC OS, and makes it easier to build a relationship for future products.

This is why we have always promoted ARMbook as a complete product. In reality, we could make (almost) as much via software sales, without having to worry about warranty/support, but I do not believe this would benefit the RISC OS scene anywhere near as much, because Pine would not know why people were purchasing the units.

I was never just interested in “putting RISC OS on a Pinebook”. What I want to achieve is a relationship with Pine that allows us to produce a range of RISC OS products, and use that business relationship to make progress with far eastern suppliers in terms of development, drivers, and so on. It’s a big picture that is a challenge. I do not yet know how successful it’ll be. But I want to try.

I was never just interested in “putting RISC OS on a Pinebook”. What I want to achieve is a relationship with Pine that allows us to produce a range of RISC OS products, and use that business relationship to make progress with far eastern suppliers in terms of development, drivers, and so on

Are Pine aiming for small form and only including the features that fit (non-standard keyboard) or is something with a larger panel size and more complete keyboard feasible?

Taking the panel size up to 39cm diagonal for example allows the horizontal extent of the keyboard to match a normal PS/2 keyboard (with no numeric pad)

@ Andrew

I was never just interested in “putting RISC OS on a Pinebook”. What I want to achieve is a relationship with Pine that allows us to produce a range of RISC OS products, and use that business relationship to make progress with far eastern suppliers in terms of development, drivers, and so on. It’s a big picture that is a challenge. I do not yet know how successful it’ll be. But I want to try.

Sounds a great idea to me, and yes RISC OS needs more visibility in that regard, without HW vendor support it’ll be very hard to access things like GPU firmware etc. So best of luck on that path sir! :)

I do not yet know how successful it’ll be.

Andrew, I did note that the Pinebook Pro (RK3399 ¹) comes with two keyboard variants – ISO UK, and ANSI – so there’s a market for UK layout clearly established in their minds. How much of that is R-Comp/RISC OS driven is a question.

¹ I believe that’s the SoC that Michael Grunditz has running Linux and RO simultaneously although the Pinebook Pro install has instabilities.

BAH .bq isn’t working for me! :D

The PineBookPro isn’t doing much at the moment, but progress has been made on RockPro64.
But there are a lot of differences , so don’t expect anything soon.

I think it has been mentioned in this thread, but to get a RISC OS completely fully featured running on new hardware is a lengthy task. I think it is amusing to do quick and dirty proof of concept things, like I did for RockPro64 , including the NetBSD part (drivers), but the road from those efforts to something complete is VERY long.

I held off on making comments on this topic because I wanted to ruminate on it for a while.

First of all, the general current state of affairs of most of the RISC OS marketplace is deplorable. I don’t need to point any fingers, suffice to say that the things that have been discussed here already highlights the barrier between “the old guard” who will know a dozen sites to go to (and if you can’t remember the URLs, CJE probably has it in stock so….) versus “people new to the platform” who do not have this knowledge. Who don’t automatically know where to look, and there’s not really any clear indication other than tossing random keywords at Google to see what sticks. [and I’m probably not the only one who has noticed that Google’s ability to find stuff has been getting increasingly crap since about 2012]

I blame part of this on the heritage. “Back in the day” there were several RISC OS related magazines (Micro User, Acorn User, Archimedes World…) that would be stocked in WHS and the like. The magazines would disseminate information, and the players could take out adverts, and pretty much all that had to compete with is the pages of green and black stripey from Watford Electronics, that must have cost a bloody fortune.

Thing is, there are no more magazines (I don’t count Drag’n’Drop and Archive because they are subscription based written by users for users; and they themselves may be a “you need to know it’s there to know it’s there” like a lot of things in the RISC OS world) which means no simple source of information about new products. There’s here, particularly in Announcements, and there’s comp.sys.acorn, and there’s the likes of Riscository… Did I mention that you need to know all of these things exist in order to know that they exist?

What to do about it.

Two approaches, preferably both at the same time.

Firstly, a central location for information, such as right here ought to have a prominent page giving links to major stockists of hardware, resources, and software. In order to avoid any potential issues of favouritism, it should probably be split into three (hardware, software, support/resources/information) and provided as a wiki. That way, if anybody wants to whinge that they got overlooked, they can just stick their details directly into the page. Make it alphabetical or something to get around “who comes first” type questions.
One of the big problems that has been highlighted is finding stuff, so the above should help to make it easier.

At the same time, dealers/developers MUST factor creating an information page or two as a part of the cost of making the product. A detailed website (or at least some pages on a website) should be launched with the product. No more of this “you’ll find out at the show” kind of rubbish, that’s not how you sell things to a potentially global marketplace.

Now to aim specifically at the topic in question:

I’m pleased that there is more detailed information on the specifications of the ARMbook/ARMbok (how many ’o’s?) than there was originally for the ARMini. What it is missing are photographs. Not screenshots, photos of the thing in use. Close-ups of the I/O ports. And, well, anything else that looks like it might be interesting. An inside photo showing the processor is always good geek porn.

What seems bizarre, asides from hanging off of the armini site rather than just being a part of R-Comp, is that there’s no clear price given. Telling people (here) to click on the Purchase link is the wrong answer. The page itself should say, as it does, “costing from £399 (inc. VAT)” and a little further down, break down the options. Why from £399? Does it come in different types (somebody has mentioned different keyboards)? Different colours? What?
The purchase link, by the way, has a fixed price that’s 10% more.

Hmm… The main site index talks about the ARMini, and looking at the products page (which has more interesting photos, yay) it says it is discontinued. What?

Dude, you really need to sort that out. And quickly, you’re selling stuff, it’s your portal to the world.
People who are new to RISC OS and might be interested in the idea of a little laptop¹ (especially if it can dual-boot to Linux) will not know of you, Andrew, or R-Comp, or your activities with RISC OS and it’s long history. They will (hopefully) eventually stumble across your site, either by reading something here, elsewhere, or a bunch of Googling. Either way, that is where they will form an impression about you, your products, and your company. It shouldn’t ever come across as seeming like a bit of an afterthought. It shouldn’t contradict itself, and as much as possible, it should give people enough information and pretty pictures that they’re like “damn, I want one of those”.

Don’t think I’m being mean. I want you to do well with this venture. If it is successful, it could open some new doors to our little community. Both in terms of hardware and software/support. The platform has been many years of neglect. It’s long overdue somebody taking down the cobwebs and peeling back the wallpaper to see what really needs fixed. It’s ideas like this that can get things moving. But ideas like this need to generate sales. And that needs information. And information is on websites – you see where I’m going with this? ;-)

¹ I’m interested, but it’s out of my budget at the moment (saving like crazy for a newer/younger toy car). But if the dumbass leading your country is stupid enough to take the WTO route (I guess that depends upon how crazy Cummings is as to what he tells his puppet to say), then if the currency crashes, yeah, I’ll get one then. ;-)

.bq isn’t working for me!

Sort of like a sentence the “.” comes at the end :)

ARMbook/ARMbok (how many ’o’s?)

Two in my throwaway comment way back when, but Andrew did a typo and it appealed to a continental market so that gets used too.

then if the currency crashes, yeah, I’ll get one then.

The hardware is priced in dollars.

I agree with Rick’s argument that a part of this site could/should work as a portal to various RISC OS solutions/products. Many pages on this site are wiki-editable so perhaps someone could kick off a prototype?!

I agree with Rick’s argument that a part of this site could/should work as a portal to various RISC OS solutions/products.

I agree, but I also agreed when it was discussed the other year and as I recall someone vetoed the idea.

perhaps someone could kick off a prototype?!

There’s been one of them for a long time — at least 10 years, IIRC.

I think you were being very harsh to be honest.

Bah!

Being harsh for saying that a commercial product should be easily visible and quantifiable to potential customers?
It’s in the best interest of both stakeholders and potential customers to do this. Even if it’s a page that someone spent an hour creating and giving it some keywords for search engines to chew on. That’d be enough to at least get it on to the front page of Google when searching for terms like “RISC OS notebook”.

To be clear, I’m not discouraging the development in any way shape or form. I’m saying the public facing side is in need of attention which would ultimately benefit both producer and consumer.